Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[John n Claudia]

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

Jesus returned as a thief at the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, but it was not a resurrection coming. It was a "coming" like lightning with the armies of Rome to destroy Jerusalem.

abcdef,

Can you clarify the difference between a "coming" and a "resurrection coming" and give scripture to support this difference?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Diaste,

Cutting short could mean either that the number of days was reduced or the activities that would occur during those days was reduced.  For example, I have been in many meetings and conferences that were running long and were "cut short" by eliminating elements that were on the agenda so that it could finish as per the original schedule.  I believe the days were cut short by the removal of what the seven thunders said, not by the removal of days from what was prophesied in Daniel.

Which is exactly what I'm saying scripture says. The full time of the 70th week isn't shortened, just the time of GT within the last week. Conference will continue and element within that is done and we're moving on.

19 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I also believe that the week runs its full course and the trial by fire at the hand of Satan continues all the way until the end.  In my scenario, the empire of the Antichrist has already defeated the kings of the north and south and heads out to battle China, the king of the east with its 200 Million person army at the Battle of Armageddon.  Religious institutions all around the world are declaring the Antichrist is Isa/Jesus of the Muslim/Christian religions who will defeat all his enemies and establish the Millennial Kingdom.  Both sides of the battle are controlled by Satan and he will use this battle to convince the world that the Antichrist is the Isa/Jesus when he defeats his last enemy in order to start a 1000 year reign.

Well, since scripture says:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Your scenario means nothing when it's contradicted by scripture. How is the trial by fire of the elect supposed to continue when the the reason it's cut short is for the elect?

19 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

The Jews and faithful Christians who have not been killed within the empire of the Antichrist were already in concentration camps awaiting their death and those outside his empire are subject to ridicule, scorn and all types of persecution.  After the Antichrist defeats the Chinese by calling down fire from heaven, his secret police round up the few Jews and true Christians who are left, killing them and leaving their bodies rotting in the streets.  Outside the empire of the Antichrist, in the Americas and elsewhere, only the truly elect realize that this is exactly what was prophesied.  Everyone else will believe that since the Antichrist won at Armageddon, he must be Isa/Jesus and they fall down to worship him as God. 

With this much pressure to conform by the rest of the world, the trial by fire continues all the way until Jesus returns 3.5 days after the bodies are left in the streets and the rapture happens.  But it is only those who endure all the way to the end who are saved and raptured.

You're clearly joking. 

 

19 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

I believe that there will be a seven year period where the Antichrist is active on the Earth.  The first 3.5 years minus 30 days (exactly), the Antichrist will be building up his empire.  At the abomination, 1290 actual days before the return of the real Jesus, he will conquer Jerusalem and religious leaders will declare that he is the Isa/Jesus mentioned in my scenario above.  It takes 30 days to establish the concentration camps and transport the captured Jews and Christians who do not accept the Antichrist as God to these camps where they endure the Great Tribulation for the next 1260 actual days.  These days come directly from Daniel.  The last of the people in the camps are slaughtered 1256.5 days later, 3.5 days before the real Jesus returns as per Revelation 11:11.  Then after the final 3.5 days, the two witnesses, the Jews and Christians in these concentration camps stand up and are raptured followed by the rest of the Church who remained faithful to the God of Heaven.

All scriptural evidence to the contrary. 

19 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

There is no need to change the number of days in Daniel.

When we see Jerusalem compassed by armies, we will know that the abomination is about to occur and there are only 3.5 years left before Jesus returns.  I believe that once we see the abomination we will be able to start a calendar counting down the exact number of days.  We will not know at what time that day Jesus will return, but we ill know the day.  This day will then be confirmed when we see the dead bodies lying in Jerusalem and we will know that there are only 3.5 more days that we have to endure. 

1 Thessalonians 5:2 is often used to support a pre-tribulation rapture.  The Holy Spirit showed me that this actually shows that we will know the exact day because we are not supposed to stop this passage at verse 2.

1But you have no need to have anything written to you, brothers, about the times and dates when this will happen; 2because you yourselves well know that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; (1 Thessalonians 5:1 – 4, CJB)

This passage is talking about the exact timing of when Jesus is going to return.  Verse 3 tells us "people are saying that everything is peaceful and secure".  If Jesus is going to return at the Battle of Armageddon and people all around the world are seeing armies gathering in the plains of Megiddo, they would not be saying that everything is peaceful and secure.

Dude, the peace and safety thing isn't a collective event like a sit-in where the whole world declares "We are now safe and at peace." It's a call for a condition, not a statement of achievement. No where does scripture intimate there is ever peace. In fact the opposite is true especially at the end of the age. 

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father."

So that shuts down your idea we know the day.

 

19 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Under my scenario however, the Battle of Armageddon is in the past so the antichrist has defeated all of the external enemies to his empire.  The two witnesses in the concentration camps were just killed 3.5 days earlier so the antichrist has defeated all of the internal enemies to his empire.  There is celebration throughout the land because the wars to unify the empire and then defend it from the kings of the north, south and east have finally finished.  There has also been massive forest fires, water turning to blood killing fish and disrupting shipping, a pandemic where sores broke out throughout the empire.  Seven years years of extreme trouble have finally come to an end and everyone is looking forward to a bright future where they are the preeminent nation ruling the world for the next 1000 years.  They are celebrating and giving gifts to each other (Revelation 11:10).

It is at this point that Jesus finally returns and only the elect who have remained faithful until the end will have seen this coming and be saved.  Everyone else will be surprised, but Jesus comes as a thief when nobody but those who will remain faithful are expecting him.

Just so we understand, this is all the opinion of one person and is not authoritative.

There is just so much that isn't close to what the Scriptures of truth say, though out everything you posted in here.

[John n Claudia]

Diaste,

I know that what I have said is very radical.  It paints a much bleaker picture of what will happen during the last years and has multiple levels of deception built into it.  As I said to begin this thread, I was encouraged to question every assumption and along the way I have killed many "sacred cows", the biggest of which was the return of Jesus at Armageddon.  Because this is so radical, it would be foolish of me to expect anything but opposition.  I am not asking anyone to take my word for it that this is what will happen.  Instead, I am asking people if they would also examine the Word with me and show me how Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is compatible with a post-tribulation rapture given that Jesus is coming as a thief when the unbelievers do not expect him but that battle is exactly the time that all unbelievers do expect Him to return.  To me, this is a logical impossibility, so I have to reject one of the two premises.

I presented this question to several strong Christians who I greatly respect and their response was to end the relationship because they had no answer, but could not accept that Jesus would not return at Armageddon.  As far as I am aware, I am the only person who is even asking this question and everyone else, Christian or not just knows that this is the time when Jesus returns.

This is also why I just ask that people reading this now remember it when crazy events do start happening in the future.  If they allow for the possibility that things are not what they appear to be, and this is accurate, it is possible that they will not be deceived.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Which is exactly what I'm saying scripture says. The full time of the 70th week isn't shortened, just the time of GT within the last week. Conference will continue and element within that is done and we're moving on.

Agreed, besides there are still several years before the Great Tribulation will start and we can always mark the calendar for the countdown when the abomination occurs and see which interpretation is correct.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, since scripture says:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Your scenario means nothing when it's contradicted by scripture. How is the trial by fire of the elect supposed to continue when the the reason it's cut short is for the elect?

We had already talked about the multiple definitions of "cut short" and I already stated my position that it was cut short by eliminating the seven thunders from the agenda.  Besides, it does not really matter if the Great Tribulation lasts 1260 days, 1259 days or even just 123 days.  What matters is that the events as described in the Bible occur as prophesied and those days are worse than any that the Jews or the Church has previously experienced so that we can be refined through the fire and become worthy of our Savior and Lord.  As I mentioned above, we can put off the determination of which definition of "cut off" is correct until the Abomination occurs and we start the countdown.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quote

The Jews and faithful Christians who have not been killed within the empire of the Antichrist were already in concentration camps awaiting their death and those outside his empire are subject to ridicule, scorn and all types of persecution.  After the Antichrist defeats the Chinese by calling down fire from heaven, his secret police round up the few Jews and true Christians who are left, killing them and leaving their bodies rotting in the streets.  Outside the empire of the Antichrist, in the Americas and elsewhere, only the truly elect realize that this is exactly what was prophesied.  Everyone else will believe that since the Antichrist won at Armageddon, he must be Isa/Jesus and they fall down to worship him as God. 

With this much pressure to conform by the rest of the world, the trial by fire continues all the way until Jesus returns 3.5 days after the bodies are left in the streets and the rapture happens.  But it is only those who endure all the way to the end who are saved and raptured.

You're clearly joking. 

Unfortunately I am not.  I believe all of this is described in the Bible and I have passages throughout the Old and New Testaments that support this scenario.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quote

I believe that there will be a seven year period where the Antichrist is active on the Earth.  The first 3.5 years minus 30 days (exactly), the Antichrist will be building up his empire.  At the abomination, 1290 actual days before the return of the real Jesus, he will conquer Jerusalem and religious leaders will declare that he is the Isa/Jesus mentioned in my scenario above.  It takes 30 days to establish the concentration camps and transport the captured Jews and Christians who do not accept the Antichrist as God to these camps where they endure the Great Tribulation for the next 1260 actual days.  These days come directly from Daniel.  The last of the people in the camps are slaughtered 1256.5 days later, 3.5 days before the real Jesus returns as per Revelation 11:11.  Then after the final 3.5 days, the two witnesses, the Jews and Christians in these concentration camps stand up and are raptured followed by the rest of the Church who remained faithful to the God of Heaven.

All scriptural evidence to the contrary. 

My scriptural evidence comes from taking the numbers given in Daniel together with the killing of the two witnesses whose bodies were left in the streets for 3.5 days.  I really would like to change my opinion on this.  Other than the "cut off" scripture mentioned above, can you point me to scriptures that show this is wrong?

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quote

1But you have no need to have anything written to you, brothers, about the times and dates when this will happen; 2because you yourselves well know that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; (1 Thessalonians 5:1 – 4, CJB)

Dude, the peace and safety thing isn't a collective event like a sit-in where the whole world declares "We are now safe and at peace." It's a call for a condition, not a statement of achievement. No where does scripture intimate there is ever peace. In fact the opposite is true especially at the end of the age. 

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father."

So that shuts down your idea we know the day.

I have checked multiple versions of the Bible including CJB, GNV, AMP, KJV, AKJV, ESV, GNT, TLB, NIV and others.  Every translation uses the present tense with regard to peace and safety and "when the people are" and "while the people are" are the most common tense designators.  Just because we do not like what the Scriptures say or it does not fit in with what we believe will happen does not give us the license to change it.  Which translation do you use that shows this to be a call for peace in the future rather than a celebration of peace in the present?

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Just so we understand, this is all the opinion of one person and is not authoritative.

There is just so much that isn't close to what the Scriptures of truth say, throw out everything you posted in here.

I very much agree that this is my opinion and I stated as much in the post that started this thread when I asked if anyone could show me an argument that allows Jesus to return as a thief at the Battle of Armageddon when everybody is expecting Him.  If anyone can provide that argument and show me scripture I would be very grateful because I do not want to believe that things will get as bad as the picture I have painted.

Edited August 25, 2020 by John n Claudia
Corrected Typos

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

iamlamad,

Right now there are not very many people who are saying that the earth is peaceful, so if this is a requirement for Jesus' return, it cannot happen right now.  I also did not say that it will get better after the Day of the Lord has started.  In fact once that day gets here, there will be even less peace than there is now.

What I said is that after the Battle of Armageddon and after the empire of the Antichrist has killed the two witnesses, the empire will be very happy.  They have defeated all of their external and internal enemies and will celebrate by sending gifts to each other.  They will look back at the previous seven years and breathe a collective sigh of relief because they believe that all the troubles they encountered during those years is now behind them and they have a glorious 1000 year kingdom to look forward to.  This is when they are feeling peaceful and this is the Day of the Lord when Christ will return.

I do not think that John ever tells us what causes the days of the Great Tribulation.  As far as I can tell, John only tells us what will happen, not the reason that those things will happen.  For example, John tells us that with the first bowl, the citizens of the beast empire will be afflicted with boils, but he does not tell us why they are afflicted.  It might be because the chose to worship the beast rather than God.  It might be because they have been persecuting the Jews.  There are many reasons this could happen, but we are not told the cause, so any guess on our part is just speculation.

One thing that I have learned is that I must be careful with my terms.  Under most definitions, the beast is the empire and the person who is the emperor of the beast is the Antichrist.  It is the Antichrist, the leader, who will be revealed at the abomination, not the empire.  I have had to correct my understanding of the last days multiple times because I got sloppy with my terminology and this confused my thinking.  After I became consistent with my terms and definitions, things became much more clear.

I thought that everyone, regardless of their pre, mid or post-tribulation position believed that the Wrath of God started with the return of Jesus to punish His enemies.  If this is true, then the Wrath of God cannot possibly start until after Revelation 16:12 where Jesus tells us that His coming is still in the future.

In addition to the confusion caused by conflating the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God, I have found that a lot of confusion regarding the last days is caused by the belief that the events described in Revelation are going to occur chronologically in the same order that they are listed in the book.  That is the events of chapter 6 precede the events of chapter 7 which precede the events of chapter 8.  There are multiple problems with this approach, the biggest one being that doing this requires much more time than the 3.5 or 7 years that are allotted to the last few years before Jesus returns.  After all, the locusts in chapter 9 take 5 months, the witnesses in chapter 11 take 42 months, the woman in chapter 12 spends another 42 months in the desert, and the mouth of the beast in chapter 13 speaks blasphemies for another 42 months.  These events by themselves take up nearly 11 years and do not leave any time for the other trumpets or any of the bowls.  Adding in all the time required for 1/3 of the forests to burn, 1/3 of the seas to turn to blood, the Euphrates to dry up, the king of the east to march out with a 200 Million person army and all of the other listed events, we have to be talking about 20 or 30 years.  Adding in the events described in Daniel chapter 11 and the wars with the kings of the north, south and east, will extend the timeline even further and all of this still does not explain why the people will be saying there is peace when Jesus does return.

The Book of Revelation is a prophetical book, not a historical book.  Historical books are written chronologically, but prophetical books are not.  We can see this more easily in Ezekiel where chapter 36 tells us what will happen at the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, chapter 37 tells us about the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in 1948, chapter 38 tells us what will happen at the end of the Millennial Kingdom and chapter 39 returns to the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom.  The visions given to Ezekiel bounce back and forth between different time periods, so there is precedence to believe that the visions in Revelation also bounce back and forth.

You will never be able to make sense of the events in Revelation and you will encounter contradiction after contradiction with any interpretation until you are able to see that the events between chapters 8 and 16 cannot possibly occur chronologically.

 

I will start with your last statement:  You will never be able to make sense of the events in Revelation and you will encounter contradiction after contradiction with any interpretation until you are able to see that the events between chapters 8 and 16 cannot possibly occur chronologically

No, I disagree. It is written in a very chronological manner, because God knows the order. But John used parentheses with no markers, and we must find them. Once one knows what is Chronology and what is parentheses, there are no contradictions. I think people that challenge John's chronology must prove that it is NOT chronological.  I have seen people so silly, they try to change even John's numbered events. Now, since you have made this bold statement, can you show us some proof? 

Historical books are written chronologically, but prophetical books are not.  This is a bold statement, but can it be proven with scripture?  I think Revelation IS written chronologically. John numbered many events, but some imagine that was just to show the order God showed events to him in the vision. I think God knew the right order and shown them to John in that order. It will be up to the naysayers to prove it is NOT chronological.  What you say may well be true for other books, perhaps Isaiah being the prime example, or Ezekiel as you suggested. But they are not Revelation. They did not come in one long vision. 

In addition to the confusion caused by conflating the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God  What GOD has conflated, let no man separate.  The first priority here is to FIND (locate) the days of GT and then the Wrath of God In Revelation. Once these two have been properly located, then one can determine WHEN for each one.  If we go by the text, rather than human imagination, we find the two are simultaneous.

We cannot undo what is written to fit some theory. We cannot rearrange to fit some theory.  I am convinced, anyone that attempts such ways of forming theories will be proven wrong. Why not just form theory by the text AS WRITTEN? It makes perfect sense that way. 

Let's start with the wrath of God.  You wrote, "I thought that everyone, regardless of their pre, mid or post-tribulation position believed that the Wrath of God started with the return of Jesus."  Very simply, you thought wrong. Some people, like me, are determined to stick with the TEXT.  It is called good exegesis. I know, many seem to use a different method: human imagination. the problem with that method, everyone's imagination is different. As I said before, can we just follow the text?  

Rather than go point by point, I am going to put down John's order as I see it. Since you think His order is not the correct order, pick out one place and prove it by scripture.

1. John is called up to heaven, sees vision
    1a. Jesus NOT SEEN in throne room (it is during His 32 years on earth)
    1b. Jesus NOT FOUND WORTHY to take the book (before He rose from the Dead)
    1c.  Jesus FOUND worthy: He just rose from the dead.
    1d. Holy Spirit seen in throne room: before Jesus was baptized
   
2. John saw Jesus enter heaven as He ascended, right after Jesus sent Mary away.

3. Jesus comes WITH the Holy Spirit, then sends Him down. (circa 32 AD)
    3a: Jesus takes book and begins opening seals

4. Seal 1: the church sent out with the Gospel. Must conquer for Satan is god of world. The Greek word every other time translated as "overcome."

5.  Seals 2 through 4 to represent the devil’s attempts to stop the advance of Gospel.
        5a. These three ride together, leaving the white horse out of their mix.

6.  5th seal: martyrs of the church age: told to wait until final martyr before judgment
       6a. Church has been at the 5th seal waiting for that final martyr all this time.
       6b. RAPTURE takes place, just before wrath as Paul states. 
       6c. The final church age martyr has come in. 
    6d. In Revelation this will take place a moment before the 6th seal: rapture first, then sudden destruction earthquake of the 6th seal. 

7. 6th seal: THE DAY of the Lord starts with great earthquake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake / Paul’s sudden destruction. God sets no appointments for us with His wrath. 
    7a. Chapter 7 intermission: God MUST see two events before He can allow the 70th week to begin: the 144,00 must be sealed, and the CHURCH must be seen safely in heaven.
    7b. the "tribulation" or 70th week Starts with the 7th seal - I am guessing ten days later  (the ten days of awe). Now the BOOK is opened to reveal the trumpet judgments. No trumpet can sound (found inside the book) until all seven seals are opened first, so the book can be opened.

8. TRUMPETS:  chapter 8: Next will come the first 6 trumpet judgments: God systematically destroying  the earth. (the hurt) It is what the Old Testament tells us of the DAY of the  Lord that started at the 6th seal. 

9.  Chapter 11:1-2  The man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies: the city will be trampled for 42 months. This proves chapter 11 is a midpoint chapter.
    9b. Chapter 11:3  The Two witnesses show up and begin witnessing: they will testify  for the next 1260 days. (Their story in a parenthesis)

10. The 7th trumpet will sound and marks the exact midpoint of the week. The man of sin enters the temple and those watching see the abomination. The Kingdoms of the word are given to Jesus Christ. He does NOT take possession at this time: no "coming" at the 7th trumpet.

11. A second or two later, chapter 12:6 takes place and those in Judea begin to flee. They saw the abomination.

12: WAR IN HEAVEN: As those in Judea begin to flee, Michael is going after Satan to cast him down.
    12a.  Satan goes after those that flee, then turns on all those who love Jesus. Only a remnant left proving a pretrib rapture.

13. John sees the beast arising; The false prophet shows up, and John tells us what the Beast and the False Prophet will do (in a parenthesis).

14. Chapter 14: God sends three angels to warn people to worship God, Babylon is fallen is fallen, to worship God, and not to take the mark.

15. The image is erected. The mark is created and now enforcement begins: any who refuse to bow will lose their head. The days of Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of begins.

16. the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. (Chapter 15)

17. The beast and False prophet go nuts - on a murder rampage! It seems - there may be no  elect that will escape. (Chapter 16)

18. God pours out the vials of His wrath - probably the first 6 in one hour of time. this  SHORTENS the days of great tribulation: TIME will go on but no tribulation associated   with it. The armies of the beast are stopped. The 42 months of authority will continue on until Jesus returns.

19. The two witnesses are killed just 3.5 days before the end of the week. The 1260 days of testifying is over.

20: The armies of the beast move out into the valley in preparation for Armageddon.
    The 42 months of trampling are over.

21. The 7th vial is poured out. The Old TEstament saints rise, along with the Two Witnesses. The days of GT are over. The entire 70th week is over.  Jesus remains in heaven
    21a. Chapters 17 & 18 show the destrucition of “Babylon.” 

22: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven. The marriage had to wait for the guests: the Old Testament saints to be resurrected.

23: Chapter 19: Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride. Armageddon takes place.

24: the Beast and false prophet are caught. The 42 months of authority are over. The 1260 days of fleeing and the 3.5 years of protection are over.

25: the 1290 days and the 1335 days comes into play about here.

THIS is John's chronology. Any attempt to rearrange will be proven wrong.

If you notice, God starts this vision at the beginning, when Jesus was still on earth before He was baptized, then after He was baptized. Then TIME moves on as Jesus prevails over death, then ascends to heaven and sends the Holy Spirit down.
Then He sends out the church, and the devil attempts to stop the church.
Then martyrs are killed.
then the church age ends with the rapture and instantly TIME CHANGES from the age of Grace to the Day of the Lord.
Then the 70th week comes, 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial. 
Then Jesus comes. 

Notice how smoothy John talks us through the church age, then through the 70th week, then His coming to Armageddon. 
For those that disagree, it is on them to prove John was mixed up. 
I believe we can TRUST John and the Holy Spirit behind him to give us the proper order. 

[abcdef]

3 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

Can you clarify the difference between a "coming" and a "resurrection coming" and give scripture to support this difference?

Hi,

Jesus came many times after His resurrection John 21.

He came to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus Acts 9:1-9, 27.

He came with the armies of Rome to destroy the temple and Jerusalem Dan. 9:26-27. No one could destroy the temple and Jerusalem against the will of God.

These are all times of His revealed presence, but they were not resurrection comings.

---------

There are only 2 resurrection comings, 1 Cor 15:23-28.

The first resurrection was Jesus and the OT saints Eph 4:8, "A host of captives" (ESV).

The second resurrection coming is for the kingdom, those who are His. 1 Cor 15:23

Then that is "the end", where death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15, and the kingdom is delivered up to the Father.

-------

Jesus has come many times, but they were not resurrection comings.

One resurrection has past, when Jesus was resurrected.

The second coming, for salvation coming Heb 9:28, is about to happen.

Then judgment and death is destroyed.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Perhaps you don't get it. 

Those who are in the first resurrection died during the tribulation when they were killed for thier testimony of Christ and they did not worship the beast or recieve his mark. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-4.htm

The rest of the dead live not again till the 1000 years are complete. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-5.htm

Unless you would like to rewrite revelation for you own personal use, you should except it as it is. 

I would advise you to believe the revelation which God gave to christ to show us. 

Perhaps I did not understand your other post. I will go back and read it. 
You are still mistaken. 

Those who are in the first resurrection died during the tribulation when they were killed for thier testimony of Christ and they did not worship the beast or recieve his mark.  The truth is, those that are martyred during the days of GT are only a SMALL PART of this first resurrection.

ALL the righteous of ALL TIME take part in this "first" or most honorable resurrection. Jesus first, then the church, then the 144,000 (probably not killed, but just changed into resurrection bodies as they are caught up) then the Old Testament saints plus those killed by the Beast.  Did I leave out a group of righteous? I don't think so. This "first" resurrection is not going to happen at a certain point in time: it is for ALL the righteous for ALL time. John only mentions it in chapter 20.  

English lesson: "first" can mean first in TIME, or it can mean first in PRIORITY. Here the meaning is NOT time.  
Logic: there are ONLY TWO resurrections: one for all the righteous, one for everyone else. Jesus rose from the dead, so MUST fit into one or the other. Which resurrection of the two did Jesus take part in? 

Daniel confirms this:  "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)

Jesus confirms this:   All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).

In other words, ALL PEOPLE from ALL TIME will take part in one or the other of these TWO (2) resurrections. 

I am not rewriting Rev. 20, I am understanding it. You should work hard to do the same. 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

19 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Perhaps I did not understand your other post. I will go back and read it. 
You are still mistaken. 

Those who are in the first resurrection died during the tribulation when they were killed for thier testimony of Christ and they did not worship the beast or recieve his mark.  The truth is, those that are martyred during the days of GT are only a SMALL PART of this first resurrection.

ALL the righteous of ALL TIME take part in this "first" or most honorable resurrection. Jesus first, then the church, then the 144,000 (probably not killed, but just changed into resurrection bodies as they are caught up) then the Old Testament saints plus those killed by the Beast.  Did I leave out a group of righteous? I don't think so. This "first" resurrection is not going to happen at a certain point in time: it is for ALL the righteous for ALL time. John only mentions it in chapter 20.  

English lesson: "first" can mean first in TIME, or it can mean first in PRIORITY. Here the meaning is NOT time.  
Logic: there are ONLY TWO resurrections: one for all the righteous, one for everyone else. Jesus rose from the dead, so MUST fit into one or the other. Which resurrection of the two did Jesus take part in? 

Daniel confirms this:  "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)

Jesus confirms this:   All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:28-29).

In other words, ALL PEOPLE from ALL TIME will take part in one or the other of these TWO (2) resurrections. 

I am not rewriting Rev. 20, I am understanding it. You should work hard to do the same. 

 

You sure added alot of words to that one verse. 

It only mentions those who were killed for thier testimony of Jesus and for the word of God. 

That's all it says. 

[abcdef]

4 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

Can you clarify the difference between a "coming" and a "resurrection coming" and give scripture to support this difference?

Oh, sorry,

Jesus does not come at the battle of Armageddon. I believe that He comes after the battle is over. After Jerusalem falls.

The verses in Rev 16 say to be ready, but do not specify exactly when the "time" is to be.

One might assume that it would probably be before the events shown at the 7th vial. (Where the planet is destroyed, my opinion.)

And after the events described at the 6th vial.

So if the events of the 6th vial continued, the logic might be that the armies attack Jerusalem, Jerusalem falls, and then because the people of Israel are destroyed, the 7th vial is poured out on Jerusalem and destroys the world/planet. 

This means that Jesus would come for the resurrection/rapture coming just before the 7th vial.

Jesus comes, after the battle, and before the 7th vial, but not AT the battle.

If Israel would win the battle of Armageddon, then there would be no need for the 7th vial.

-----

Since the context of the vials is against the Roman beast and his allies, we might assume that the 7th vial is also against the beast after the conquest of Jerusalem. 

 

[John n Claudia]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No, I disagree. It is written in a very chronological manner, because God knows the order. But John used parentheses with no markers, and we must find them. Once one knows what is Chronology and what is parentheses, there are no contradictions. I think people that challenge John's chronology must prove that it is NOT chronological.  I have seen people so silly, they try to change even John's numbered events. Now, since you have made this bold statement, can you show us some proof? 

With regard to proof that the events are not chronological, you just need to look at how many times the same events are mentioned.  For example, the rapture is mentioned in Revelation 4:1, 7:9 - 17, 11:11 - 12, and 18:4 - 5.  Similarly, the Wrath of God is mentioned in Revelation 4:5, 8:1 - 5, 11:19, 11:13, 14:1 - 2, 16:17 - 21, and 19:6.  Note that the Wrath is specified seven times because there are seven different ways that God tells the story of the last days to John so he can write it down for us.
 

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Historical books are written chronologically, but prophetical books are not.  This is a bold statement, but can it be proven with scripture?  I think Revelation IS written chronologically. John numbered many events, but some imagine that was just to show the order God showed events to him in the vision. I think God knew the right order and shown them to John in that order. It will be up to the naysayers to prove it is NOT chronological.  What you say may well be true for other books, perhaps Isaiah being the prime example, or Ezekiel as you suggested. But they are not Revelation. They did not come in one long vision. 

If you cannot accept the argument that Revelation can do this because every other prophetical book does this, then perhaps you can accept that putting all these chapters chronologically would require a time span of over 11 years with just the events we are told will have a specific duration.  Adding in all the other events will extend this time significantly.  How can you explain an end time tribulation spanning 20 or 30 years?

If you do not accept either of these two arguments, I am not sure what argument you would accept and there is no point in my pointing out scripture that you chose to ignore.

 

35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In addition to the confusion caused by conflating the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God  What GOD has conflated, let no man separate.  The first priority here is to FIND (locate) the days of GT and then the Wrath of God In Revelation. Once these two have been properly located, then one can determine WHEN for each one.  If we go by the text, rather than human imagination, we find the two are simultaneous.

Now this is indeed a bold statement.  Why do you think that the time the gentiles will trample the temple and punish the Jews will be the exact same time that God is pouring out the Wrath of God on the Gentiles?  Will it really take God 20 or 30 years to defeat an army of people?
 

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Let's start with the wrath of God.  You wrote, "I thought that everyone, regardless of their pre, mid or post-tribulation position believed that the Wrath of God started with the return of Jesus."  Very simply, you thought wrong. Some people, like me, are determined to stick with the TEXT.  It is called good exegesis. I know, many seem to use a different method: human imagination. the problem with that method, everyone's imagination is different. As I said before, can we just follow the text?  

Thank you for clarifying your position and defining the start of the Wrath of God at the sixth seal.

 

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

7. 6th seal: THE DAY of the Lord starts with great earthquake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake / Paul’s sudden destruction. God sets no appointments for us with His wrath. 

To be clear, you are saying that God's wrath starts with the sixth seal.  According to the text then, we need to go through the seventh seal, followed by all seven trumpets, the woman clothed in the sun, and the first six bowls.  It is only after all of this stuff happens that Jesus is able to return at the seventh bowl.  The reason I am saying this is that Revelation 16:15 tells us that Jesus has still not returned and the only thing left after this is the seventh bowl.

Who exactly is pouring out the Wrath of God on the Antichrist and all of his followers?  It would not be the angels because they follow Jesus into battle and Jesus has not returned.  It can't be the believers because we are told that we would be trampled upon in Revelation 11:1 and that 

the Gentiles would rule Jerusalem for 42 months in 11:2.

Many times arguments like this arise because people have different definitions for the same term.  Could you tell me how you define the Wrath of God so I can understand why you say that it starts with the sixth seal?

 

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

22: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven. The marriage had to wait for the guests: the Old Testament saints to be resurrected.

I thought that the Old Testament saints were not resurrected until the End of the Millennial Kingdom.  Are you saying that there will be three resurrections, one for the dead in Christ at the rapture, one for the Old Testament saints at the start of the Millennial kingdom so they can attend the wedding and a third at the end of the Millennial kingdom so the wicked can be judged?  I thought that other than the one-off resurrection of Jesus, there were only two resurrections one for the Church and the other for everyone else.

 

Your chronology creates more questions than answers.  As i mentioned earlier, confusion often arises when people have different definitions for the same terms.  Why don't we start over by making sure that we have common definitions.

I define the Great Tribulation as the time period during which the Jews and the Church will be trampled by the Gentiles in order for them to be purified as through fire so they can show that they are worthy.  This is the last 1260 days as prophesied by Daniel which start 30 days after the Abomination and continue until Jesus returns to save His people.

I define the Wrath of God as the time period when Jesus punishes those who have been persecuting His people, saving both the Jews and the Church.  During this time, Jesus also fulfills the other promises by rapturing the Church, reuniting the twelve tribes of  Israel and setting up the Jews as the ruling nation on the earth.  This starts with the second coming of Christ and ends with the the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom ruled by the prince described in Ezekiel. 

How do you define the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God?

 

[John n Claudia]

 

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Jesus came many times after His resurrection John 21.

He came to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus Acts 9:1-9, 27.

He came with the armies of Rome to destroy the temple and Jerusalem Dan. 9:26-27. No one could destroy the temple and Jerusalem against the will of God.

These are all times of His revealed presence, but they were not resurrection comings.

abcdef,

I do agree that Jesus showed himself to Paul in Acts 9 and that nobody could destroy the temples against the will of God.  However, this does not mean that Jesus was present on the earth when the Romans destroyed the temple.  In the Old Testament, God uses many different tools to fulfill His will.  For example, He used Nebuchadnezzar to destroy the first temple.  He used the Egyptians and the slavery of the Jews to show His power to redeem.  He used the men of Ai to punish the Jews and get them to root out the evil in their ranks.  Jesus does not have to be present in order for God's will to be fulfilled.

 

16 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Jesus does not come at the battle of Armageddon. I believe that He comes after the battle is over. After Jerusalem falls.

 

I agree that Jesus does not come at the Battle of Armageddon and that his return is after the battle is over.  However, per Daniel, the Antichrist will conquer Jerusalem at the time of the Abomination and this occurs about 3.5 years before the Battle of Armageddon.

 

28 minutes ago, abcdef said:

One might assume that it (the return of Jesus) would probably be before the events shown at the 7th vial. (Where the planet is destroyed, my opinion.)

The planet cannot be destroyed at this time because we still have to go through the Millennial Kingdom where the Jews rule on the earth for 1000 years.

 

30 minutes ago, abcdef said:

This means that Jesus would come for the resurrection/rapture coming just before the 7th vial.

 

You are correct that Jesus does return to rapture His Church just before the seventh vial.  However, based on other comments you made, I think that you are falling into the trap of believing that all the events in Revelation will occur in time in the exact same order that they are written in the book.  Please go back and read my earlier posts where I show that this cannot possibly be true because it would require the events of the Great Tribulation to last for a minimum of 11 years and most likely 20 or 30 years.  Additionally, if the events were to occur chronologically, this would be the only prophetic book in the entire Bible that followed this pattern.