The Antichrist's seven year covenant with many

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4

"But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" - 1 Cor 11

"And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:  for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." - Hebrews 12

The mistake of pretrib is conflating wrath, which condemns the wicked and rebellious, with judgment and chastisement which all sons undergo.

Pretrib has changed the truth into a lie in this. The church isn't going anywhere and will deal with this judgment on the House of God but escape the eternal damnation of wrath, and only that.

 

I submit that a believer in chastened by God THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD. 

You imagine the 70th week is "chastening" for the church, when in truth, it is chastening for the Hebrew people. 

We, the born again ones, are "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus." We are chastened when we read the word of God. Whatever some believer's pet sin, when they read it is a sin, they are chastened by the Holy Spirit until they obey. 

The time of wrath (either God's or Satan's) is for sinners, NOT FOR SAINTS. We serve a God who has promised to keep us OUT of His wrath. 

Where you miss it: 

"Time" goes from grace to judgment: at the pretrib rapture the grace of the church age is ended and the Day of the Lord begins. It is a time of judgment and wrath. That means, for all those left behind, wrath. Some may well be people God loves, but had to leave behind because they were "Christian" but not born again. There is no way they can miss Paul's sudden destruction - a worldwide earthquake. It will certainly kill some, but not all the people. 

Then will come the Trumpet judgments, WITH His wrath. (It is the DAY of His wrath so anything coming from heaven will be coming WITH His wrath.) This means, in a nuclear exchange, believers will suffer EXACTLY what non-believers will suffer. If they are at point zero, they will die. If they are in a deadly radiation zone, they will soon die. It is not God's will, for His will was they get born again and ESCAPE these things. 

After the trumpets, then days of GT: the wrath of Satan OVERLAID with God's wrath; they are happening at the same time. (your theory of "conflating" is in error.) When a believer is in a time of God's wrath AND Satan's wrath, they will suffer from BOTH. When God turns all fresh water into blood, BOTH the believer and non-believer will suffer. 

Postrib / prewrath  has changed the truth into a lie. There WILL BE an escape. But who is praying that they be found worthy?

The church will be caught up out of wrath, just as the Day of His wrath is beginning. You can stay behind if you want to, choose to, or if you will have NOT been accounted worthy to escape all these things. 

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, luigi said:

For some reason the Lord provides us numerous details in His Word about the end of the age throughout nearly every book in both the Old and New Testaments. I thereby do believe that this information is critical to whether we choose the lie which is soon upon us, or whether we choose the truth.

Daniel chapters 7 through 12 are all about the end times, correlating in great part with the book of Revelation. If you wish to disregard these data being for the last end of the indignation, when Satan makes his last stand, and instead choose these data to be in regards to some irrelevant individual in ancient history, that is up to you.  

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

what shall be in the last end of the indignation:  You can pull this out of its context and FORCE It to be end times, or you can leave it in its context so it is truth. Gabriel DEFINES "the indignation. You can ignore his definition or make up one, your choice.

IN CONTEXT:

 

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. (What "end?" Don't guess: the angel will TELL US. )

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: (WHAT indignation? Don't guess: the angel will tell us. ) for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. (the angel is now going to tell us what "END." )

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. (Alexander the Great)

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.  (four stood up: Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus) (8 the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn)

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom (Who's kingdom? Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus kingdom), when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. (Antiochus Epiphanes) 

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: (He has demonic help) and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. (the Jews)

So the end spoken of here is not in our future, it was in our past: the "indignation" was the time Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifices and forbade any kind of worship to the God of the Jews. He forced them to worship HIS god. 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, luigi said:

If you cannot believe the Lord has the capacity to have His Word scribed the way He wanted it scribed, then how can anyone believe anything in the Word, when nearly anything in it can then be corrupt? I will believe the Word as is rather than change a little here and a little there to fit some unsupported point of view by man.

Question; many chapters of Job were the sayings of his "friends." Near the end of the book God told Job to sacrifice for them, because what they said was WRONG. Those words, then,  were NOT "inspired" by God. They came out of those friend's understanding. However, God inspired the writer of Job to included their words. 

So was what they said "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?"  Only in the negative sense. Are those chapters then the "Inspired word of God?" Yes, God inspired those words (even though wrong) to be included on our cannon.  That is perhaps one reason why we are to "rightly divide" the word of Truth. Their words as they spoke them were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit. 

How about the words Peter said? "²² Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Were those words inspired by the Holy Spirit? No, they were inspired by the Devil! But God inspired Matthew to included those words inspired by the devil to be included in the text. Again, we are to RIGHTLY divide the word of Truth. 

I have heard SERMONS PREACHED (in a positive sense) from the discourses of these friends of Job, even though what they said was WRONG. It is just silly to preach from WRONG words. 

The question then is, was Enoch's prophecy inspired words from the Holy Spirit? We don't know: all we know is, God inspired Jude to include what Enoch said. 

Question: with all this said, HOW MUCH WEIGHT should be put in this verse when we have other verses that seem to disagree? Will you LIMIT the armies of heaven (probably billions) to "ten thousand?" 
Or will you limit the dead in Christ that He will bring with Him to the rapture to only "ten Thousand?" 

Perhaps there is yet ANOTHER coming not written about anywhere where He comes with exactly ten thousand saints.

Personally, I would put more weight on words directly written by John through the Holy Spirit: "armies" come with Jesus. And I will not limit the dead in Christ to only ten thousands either. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

You imagine the 70th week is "chastening" for the church, when in truth, it is chastening for the Hebrew people. 

I imagine no such thing. Scripture is explicit. Paul and Peter are speaking to believers in Jesus, believers in Jesus of all races. No such thing as Jew or Greek as all are one in Christ. But pretrib has a racist bent, is prejudicial and arrogant. "We're better than everyone else. They have to suffer, not us." Ludicrous.

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We, the born again ones, are "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus." We are chastened when we read the word of God. Whatever some believer's pet sin, when they read it is a sin, they are chastened by the Holy Spirit until they obey. 

So if they don't hold it to be a sin, it's not? So then if one doesn't read adultery as a sin it's not? Interesting stuff. 

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The time of wrath (either God's or Satan's) is for sinners, NOT FOR SAINTS. We serve a God who has promised to keep us OUT of His wrath. 

."And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,"

"When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered,"

So when scripture says the above then what? Ignore it in favor of a doctrine? In today's church shiny pews are the goal, not the truth. If you don't put butts in seats you can't get donations and pay for the excesses of the pastors. 

 

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Where you miss it: 

"Time" goes from grace to judgment: at the pretrib rapture the grace of the church age is ended and the Day of the Lord begins. It is a time of judgment and wrath. That means, for all those left behind, wrath. Some may well be people God loves, but had to leave behind because they were "Christian" but not born again. There is no way they can miss Paul's sudden destruction - a worldwide earthquake. It will certainly kill some, but not all the people. 

No it does not. This is just more pretrib lies. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was neither Christian or Jew. Neither was Abraham. The 'dispensation of grace' is just a pretrib fantasy used to dupe the masses, and it works.

"I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness."

Pretrib elevates themselves above this. Imagine that, Jesus in the wilderness with the Jews. I guess that must have been a different Christ. Another Spirit. Pretribbers have a better, higher spirit. 'Christians' will never be struck down by God because they are just better.

Pretrib says:

"Christians do not suffer wrath because God does not appoint Christians to wrath."

"We are Christians so we don't endure wrath."

"The 70th week is wrath."

"Therefore we are taken out before the 70th week begins."

Unless you have to fix a glitch in the doctrine, that is. "Some may well be people God loves, but had to leave behind because they were "Christian" but not born again"

And, "And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

According to pretrib great tribulation is wrath. Yet here we have what can only be Christians with blood washed robes standing about the throne. Clearly these are post trib people of every people group. Believers. That went through wrath. Which pretrib says is impossible. Something is rotten in the doctrine.

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Then will come the Trumpet judgments, WITH His wrath. (It is the DAY of His wrath so anything coming from heaven will be coming WITH His wrath.) This means, in a nuclear exchange, believers will suffer EXACTLY what non-believers will suffer. If they are at point zero, they will die. If they are in a deadly radiation zone, they will soon die. It is not God's will, for His will was they get born again and ESCAPE these things. 

What?? Believers who are not born again? I think pretrib would fit in nicely with the Jim Crow south of the 40's and 50's. Pretrib just loves it's segregation.

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After the trumpets, then days of GT: the wrath of Satan OVERLAID with God's wrath; they are happening at the same time. (your theory of "conflating" is in error.) When a believer is in a time of God's wrath AND Satan's wrath, they will suffer from BOTH. When God turns all fresh water into blood, BOTH the believer and non-believer will suffer. 

How is it a believer is in the wrath of God when the scripture says, "For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." and is the foundation of pretrib nonsense?

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You can stay behind if you want to, choose to, or if you will have NOT been accounted worthy to escape all these things. 

Shaming and manipulation. I'm not afraid as the Lord is looking out for me. You are terrified along with the pretrib camp. And you should be. You're not prepared and you are not keeping the word  of His patience.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Diaste

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Not a bit, rather a LOT!

My attempt to translate:

A people, troops, tribe  (and the people)
A commander, civil, military, religious  (of the prince) 
To come in or come or go (who is to come)
go to ruin (will destroy)
Excitment (the city?)
A sacred place or thing (and the sanctuary) 
An extremity or after (the end) 
Flood or deluge (will come like a flood
Until or as far as or up to (and until)
Extremity or after (the end)
a battle or war (there will be war)
Stun, devastate, stupefy (desolations) 
to point sharply, to wound, to decide (have been decreed)

To be strong, to prevail or act insolently (he will confirm)
a covenant
much, many, great (with many)
united, one, first (for one)
a period of 7 days or years week (week)
the half, the middle(but in the middle)
a period of 7 days, week (week)
to repose, cease exertion, rest (he will put and end0
A slaughter, the flesh of an animal, sacrifice (to sacrifice)
a donation, ribute, or sacrificial offering (and offering)
Above, over, upon, against (and on)
An edge, extremity, wing, flap pinnacle (the wing)
an idol, idolatrous, filthy, disgusting (the abomination)
to stun, devastate, stupefy (that causes devistation)
As far as, even to, up to until (until) 
to point sharply, to wound, to be alert, to decide (the decreed)
Completion, complete destruction, consumption, annihilation (destruction)
to pour forth or be poured out (is poured out)
Above, over, upon, against (upon)
To stun, to devastate, stupefy (him)

26  ...a people or troops (with) commander to come (will) ruin excitement a sacred place (temple) (and) after (a) flood until extremity (end) war, devastations, decided.

27  Prevail strongly a covenant (with) many one seven (years) (but) (in) the middle (of) one seven (years) repose (cease) sacrifice (and) offering above or on a pinnacle or wing an idol to devastate up to a decision complete destruction be poured out upon to devastate. 

It seems very likely that the events of verse 27 should follow the last part of the previous verse and it would be either the people or the commander who would accomplish verse 27. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad. (I'm going to start with a "Sabbath of peace" to you because this may take a while and Shabbat ["Sabbath"] begins with the sighting of the first three stars this evening.)

I really understand your struggle. Before I took some Hebrew classes (way back when), Hebrew was quite a mystery to me. It didn't follow any of the "normal" Romance languages (languages stemming from the Roman Latin), and all I knew was French and Latin and a little Greek. This is why to learn Hebrew requires a good understanding of Hebrew grammar, and not just the vocabulary provided by Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages, or any other such source. One must learn how the verbs are declined for the various genders, numbers, and cases. Furthermore, one must know how to translate the various prepositions, some of which are ATTACHED to the words which go with the preposition, and some stand alone!

One also needs to understand that two nouns standing side by side are called a "noun construct" and in that state, the second noun is subordinate to the first noun. Thus, in translation, the word "of" is typically added between the two words, like "ben David" translates to "son OF David." Which "son?" "David's" "son!" And, the word "David" is subordinate to and modifies "ben."

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Hebrew reminds me of what I have been studying of ancient Arabic in the Quran, before they added the diacritical markings. For example, just one character (like a smile) can mean several things depending on the diacritical marks. The problem was, the first Qurans were written before the diacritical markings were invented. So when a Quran was copied from the old, before the diacritics, it was anyone's guess what the original meaning was!

Well, as a Middle Eastern language, Arabic is closely associated with Hebrew. Hebrew, too, has diacritical marks usually called "vowel pointing" as well as liturgical pointing known as "cantilation marks" or just "trope," marks that were used to control how Scripture is chanted. However, originally there were no diacritical marks and one will still find that newspapers and magazines don't use the vowel pointing. CONTEXT makes the difference in understanding what is being written.

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems, then, we should understand these verses through the lens of Revelation. It has MUCH MORE information, and if understood, shows a complete week. When Jesus, the head of the church, was teaching me, He said, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" I heard His voice; I heard His words. I can't deny I heard it! 

Then I found what He sent me to find: the entire week marked by 7's: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet (midpoint) and the 7th vial. 

Therefore I have to believe the entire 70th week is in our future. 

Frankly, I don't know WHAT you heard, but I don't deny that you heard something, either! It could have been your radio wasn't actually off but just turned down so low that you were receiving subliminal messages from a recording of Tim LaHaye! Maybe haSatan was impersonating Yeshua` for you. One should NEVER trust in voices without Scriptural authorization. For us who have the Scriptures in their entirety, we don't need "voices" to hear from God.

Now, there are those who live in Islamic countries where the Bible is forbidden who DO receive God's intervention more directly, by seeing or hearing from God's Messiah Yeshua` directly. However, that is to give Avraham's children a direct revelation that YHWH is real and is the ONLY TRUE God, not the tribal god, Allah.

God is preparing the way for Egypt and Assyria, who as empires at the height of their civilization, in Isaiah 19:

Isaiah 19:19-25 (KJV)

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. 20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. 21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. 22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25 Whom the LORD of hosts (Hebrew: YHWH TsVaa'owt) shall bless, saying,

"Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance."

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question; many chapters of Job were the sayings of his "friends." Near the end of the book God told Job to sacrifice for them, because what they said was WRONG. Those words, then,  were NOT "inspired" by God. They came out of those friend's understanding. However, God inspired the writer of Job to included their words. 

So was what they said "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?"  Only in the negative sense. Are those chapters then the "Inspired word of God?" Yes, God inspired those words (even though wrong) to be included on our cannon.  That is perhaps one reason why we are to "rightly divide" the word of Truth. Their words as they spoke them were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit. 

How about the words Peter said? "²² Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Were those words inspired by the Holy Spirit? No, they were inspired by the Devil! But God inspired Matthew to included those words inspired by the devil to be included in the text. Again, we are to RIGHTLY divide the word of Truth. 

I have heard SERMONS PREACHED (in a positive sense) from the discourses of these friends of Job, even though what they said was WRONG. It is just silly to preach from WRONG words. 

The question then is, was Enoch's prophecy inspired words from the Holy Spirit? We don't know: all we know is, God inspired Jude to include what Enoch said. 

Question: with all this said, HOW MUCH WEIGHT should be put in this verse when we have other verses that seem to disagree? Will you LIMIT the armies of heaven (probably billions) to "ten thousand?" 
Or will you limit the dead in Christ that He will bring with Him to the rapture to only "ten Thousand?" 

Perhaps there is yet ANOTHER coming not written about anywhere where He comes with exactly ten thousand saints.

Personally, I would put more weight on words directly written by John through the Holy Spirit: "armies" come with Jesus. And I will not limit the dead in Christ to only ten thousands either. 

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

I quite agree with you in this post! There's God's Word and then, there are God's WORDS! Not everything in the Scriptures are God talking, but all will LEAD TO God talking!

You said, 'Personally, I would put more weight on words directly written by John through the Holy Spirit: "armies" come with Jesus. And I will not limit the dead in Christ to only ten thousands either.'

Right, but the "Rapture" didn't occur 7 years prior to His Coming but AT His Coming! And, this, I believe, is the REASON for the "Rapture":

Prophecy reveals,

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah (Hebrew: Baatsrah, a city of Edowm, the land of Esav or "Esau," "fortress")? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save!"

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment! 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed (those I will have bought back to me) is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered (Hebrew: v'eshtowmeem, [same root word, "shomeem," as in Daniel 9:27] "and I was appalled") that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, He gathers HIS ARMY, sending out His messengers from the lowest end of the earth to the highest end of the sky, north, south, east, and west to gather them unto Him!

But, contrary to opinion, it TAKES TIME to equip and train an army! They may be resurrected strong, but most of them are INEXPERIENCED in warfare! Some of them can't even ride a horse, having never ridden one before! So, I believe, that most of them will be sent to HELP the captives and injured, to lead them out of harm's way and to heal their injuries. But again, most of them have never healed others' injuries before, as Yeshua` can heal them! So, there will be a HUGE learning curve, any way you look at it!

And, besides this, the Greek word in Jude 14 translated as "ten thousands" is the locative form of the plural of "murias," ("myriad"), "muriasin," meaning "tens-of-thousands," and is considered "too large to count; an indefinite number."

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

I quite agree with you in this post! There's God's Word and then, there are God's WORDS! Not everything in the Scriptures are God talking, but all will LEAD TO God talking!

You said, 'Personally, I would put more weight on words directly written by John through the Holy Spirit: "armies" come with Jesus. And I will not limit the dead in Christ to only ten thousands either.'

Right, but the "Rapture" didn't occur 7 years prior to His Coming but AT His Coming! And, this, I believe, is the REASON for the "Rapture":

Prophecy reveals,

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah (Hebrew: Baatsrah, a city of Edowm, the land of Esav or "Esau," "fortress")? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save!"

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment! 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed (those I will have bought back to me) is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered (Hebrew: v'eshtowmeem, [same root word, "shomeem," as in Daniel 9:27] "and I was appalled") that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

So, He gathers HIS ARMY, sending out His messengers from the lowest end of the earth to the highest end of the sky, north, south, east, and west to gather them unto Him!

But, contrary to opinion, it TAKES TIME to equip and train an army! They may be resurrected strong, but most of them are INEXPERIENCED in warfare! Some of them can't even ride a horse, having never ridden one before! So, I believe, that most of them will be sent to HELP the captives and injured, to lead them out of harm's way and to heal their injuries. But again, most of them have never healed others' injuries before, as Yeshua` can heal them! So, there will be a HUGE learning curve, any way you look at it!

And, besides this, the Greek word in Jude 14 translated as "ten thousands" is the locative form of the plural of "murias," ("myriad"), "muriasin," meaning "tens-of-thousands," and is considered "too large to count; an indefinite number."

the "Rapture" didn't occur 7 years prior to His Coming but AT His Coming!  How strange you wrote this in the past tense! It will be a future event. And certainly the rapture will be a "coming." Paul used that very word in 1 Thes. 4.  What you are missing is that coming in 1 thes. 4 WILL BE over 7 years from His coming to Armageddon.  It puzzles me why SO MANY want to stay behind and live through both God's wrath and Satan's wrath, as if they were being forced into it - when the truth is, God has an escape planned. The "reason" for the rapture is that God will begin the Day of His wrath (6th seal) and will NOT allow His children to suffer His wrath - so He will remove us. 

I agree with you on the passage in Jude. I looked it up. I did not know before that. Thanks. 

I have often wondered about Isaiah 63:3: He comes with armies but fights in Bozrah alone.  We will know when it happens!

[luigi]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

what shall be in the last end of the indignation:  You can pull this out of its context and FORCE It to be end times, or you can leave it in its context so it is truth. Gabriel DEFINES "the indignation. You can ignore his definition or make up one, your choice.

IN CONTEXT:

 

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. (What "end?" Don't guess: the angel will TELL US. )

18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: (WHAT indignation? Don't guess: the angel will tell us. ) for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. (the angel is now going to tell us what "END." )

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. (Alexander the Great)

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.  (four stood up: Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus) (8 the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn)

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom (Who's kingdom? Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy 1, Seleucus kingdom), when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. (Antiochus Epiphanes) 

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: (He has demonic help) and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. (the Jews)

So the end spoken of here is not in our future, it was in our past: the "indignation" was the time Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifices and forbade any kind of worship to the God of the Jews. He forced them to worship HIS god. 

Where is the he goat with the notable horn/military who traverses the whole earth from the West without touching the ground? It's a notable air force in the end times who destroys Persia/Iran? CONTEXT.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by luigi

[luigi]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question; many chapters of Job were the sayings of his "friends." Near the end of the book God told Job to sacrifice for them, because what they said was WRONG. Those words, then,  were NOT "inspired" by God. They came out of those friend's understanding. However, God inspired the writer of Job to included their words. 

So was what they said "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?"  Only in the negative sense. Are those chapters then the "Inspired word of God?" Yes, God inspired those words (even though wrong) to be included on our cannon.  That is perhaps one reason why we are to "rightly divide" the word of Truth. Their words as they spoke them were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit. 

How about the words Peter said? "²² Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Were those words inspired by the Holy Spirit? No, they were inspired by the Devil! But God inspired Matthew to included those words inspired by the devil to be included in the text. Again, we are to RIGHTLY divide the word of Truth. 

I have heard SERMONS PREACHED (in a positive sense) from the discourses of these friends of Job, even though what they said was WRONG. It is just silly to preach from WRONG words. 

The question then is, was Enoch's prophecy inspired words from the Holy Spirit? We don't know: all we know is, God inspired Jude to include what Enoch said. 

Question: with all this said, HOW MUCH WEIGHT should be put in this verse when we have other verses that seem to disagree? Will you LIMIT the armies of heaven (probably billions) to "ten thousand?" 
Or will you limit the dead in Christ that He will bring with Him to the rapture to only "ten Thousand?" 

Perhaps there is yet ANOTHER coming not written about anywhere where He comes with exactly ten thousand saints.

Personally, I would put more weight on words directly written by John through the Holy Spirit: "armies" come with Jesus. And I will not limit the dead in Christ to only ten thousands either. 

Many words in Job were those by his friends, and it was pointed out that they were false, having their origin from the enemy. There are many other such instances where what something false from someone is pointed out as such.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Frankly, I don't know WHAT you heard, but I don't deny that you heard something, either! It could have been your radio wasn't actually off but just turned down so low that you were receiving subliminal messages from a recording of Tim LaHaye! Maybe haSatan was impersonating Yeshua` for you. One should NEVER trust in voices without Scriptural authorization. For us who have the Scriptures in their entirety, we don't need "voices" to hear from God.

Now we have your opinion, let's hear from scripture:

John 10:27

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

 

The truth then, is this: WE ALL should be hearing God. I have heard His voice enough times in my life, I KNOW His voice. Sometimes He speaks in what seems to be an audible voice - very loud! One would imagine all in the room would hear. But in reality, He is speaking in the spirit realm to ONE person. Other times, it is a still, small voice. All believers should learn to recognize the voice of their OWN spirit, the still, small voice of God, and occasionally a loud voice from God. They are all different. Many times when people "hear" a voice, they imagine it is God, but in reality it is the voice of their own spirit. 

 

My answer:  "I know whom I have believed, and I am certain that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day."

 

Of course, when God's words disagree with other people's theories, they have a choice; they could change their theories. But most won't; they are left with another choice: discredit the words spoken.