History of OSAS

[Khristeeanos]

God's promises are conditional.

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On our goodness ? On our obedience to the law ? That's kind of legalistic, don't you think ?

Blessings,

Tim

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The OT had many, many promises that if the Hebrews followed all of God's laws closely, that they would be blessed and inherit the promises that God said they would have.

The OT is such a great read if you have never delved deep into it. I have the entire Bible on MP3 and listen to it all day during work.

I am up to 1 Kings now. It sure helps with understanding the history and gives context to the NT Scriptures.

[Pipit]

I am kinda surprised at how this doctrinal debate lacks much Biblical foundation. With very few exceptions, so far all everyone really debated has been man made ideologies, and no connectionss have been made between these man made ideologies and Scripture. And even in those few exceptions, those connections don't stand well to really support the arguments anyone is trying to make.

In regards to Deuteronomy 31, we must also take in Joshua 1, as the words spoken within the two, and the aspects of the covenant are similar, even though one was given to Moses (who soon died later), and the other to Joshua. You must also go back to Deuteronomy 30:11-19, and note that God laid before the people of Israel an option to obey, and choose life, or to disobey, and choose death. Thus, God's covenant here is a directly conditional covenant, based upon the chooses of the people of Israel.

In using such examples from scripture, we need to make the distinction between what are conditional covenants, and what are unconditional covenants--as well as periodical covenants (meant for a specific place and time and peoples) and eternal covenants.

Hopefully, keeping such things in mind, the nature and history of OSAS can be better disclosed and understood.

[apothanein kerdos]

This did start in scripture, but ever since my post 1Diem has been very very silent in that topic.

[Khristeeanos]

This did start in scripture, but ever since my post 1Diem has been very very silent in that topic.

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This isn't a debate of Scriptures.

LOL!!!

My original post still stands.

[Joy in the Journey]

God's promises are conditional.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On our goodness ? On our obedience to the law ? That's kind of legalistic, don't you think ?

Blessings,

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The OT had many, many promises that if the Hebrews followed all of God's laws closely, that they would be blessed and inherit the promises that God said they would have.

The OT is such a great read if you have never delved deep into it. I have the entire Bible on MP3 and listen to it all day during work.

I am up to 1 Kings now. It sure helps with understanding the history and gives context to the NT Scriptures.

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I know, but we're living under grace now...we are now under the New Covenant ( Testament )...do you still sacrifice sheep ? I'm not trying to be smart But often I think folks fail to realize the impact of the Temple veil being rent asunder. When Jesus said "it is finished" it was finished.

Blessings,

Tim

[apothanein kerdos]

This did start in scripture, but ever since my post 1Diem has been very very silent in that topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This isn't a debate of Scriptures.

LOL!!!

My original post still stands.

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1Diem, you're grasping at straws. FOr one, I showed how you misinterpreted what the original church fathers were stating. YOu have yet to counter it. You're simply choosing to ignore it because your last result to prove your point backfired on you. So at least be intellectually honest and respond to what I said about your mis-interpretation of what the church fathers said.

[Khristeeanos]

God's promises are conditional.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On our goodness ? On our obedience to the law ? That's kind of legalistic, don't you think ?

Blessings,

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The OT had many, many promises that if the Hebrews followed all of God's laws closely, that they would be blessed and inherit the promises that God said they would have.

The OT is such a great read if you have never delved deep into it. I have the entire Bible on MP3 and listen to it all day during work.

I am up to 1 Kings now. It sure helps with understanding the history and gives context to the NT Scriptures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know, but we're living under grace now...we are now under the New Covenant ( Testament )...do you still sacrifice sheep ? I'm not trying to be smart But often I think folks fail to realize the impact of the Temple veil being rent asunder. When Jesus said "it is finished" it was finished.

Blessings,

Tim

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While you are correct, the NT have many conditional promises attached to them.

Just read through the NT and look for the word "IF" and read the promise that God gives that will only be realized after the condition is met.

Just from memory, I think Colossians 1:21-23 is one such instance.

[apothanein kerdos]

[sarcasm]You're right, Augustine, Ireneaus, and Justin Martyr NEVER taught the idea of eternal security[/sarcasm]

All of them taught that those who endure are saved and took the wording from the Bible. You saw my response on scripture and realized you couldn't argue back, so you decided to appeal to the church fathers. Unlucky for you I'm a church history major.

So go ahead, continue this debate

Also, pay attention, none of the quotes from Clement, Polycarp, or Irenaeus do not teach a limited salvation. The closest quote that comes to it would be from Irenaeus yet he is quoting partly from a scripture, and "shut out from his kingdom" meant the works of His kingdom and the power of His Kingdom. THe biggest theme among the early church was that they were God's kingdom, His representation on earth. By sinning wilfully and not repenting, we cast ourselves away from His earthly kingdom, we were cast away from the church. THis is what Paul instructed, so that the person may die by Satan's hand, but his soul still belongs to God (this in my other post).

The simple fact is, not only did you mis interpret scripture, but you're mis reading what the early church fathers said

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Here you go 1Diem, I'm still waiting for a reply to this.

[Joy in the Journey]

While you are correct, the NT have many conditional promises attached to them.

Just read through the NT and look for the word "IF" and read the promise that God gives that will only be realized after the condition is met.

Just from memory, I think Colossians 1:21-23 is one such instance.

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Are you saying Paul's telling us that we must be "holy, and blameless, and above reproach" in order to maintain our salvation ? If that's the case, we're all in trouble I don't believe that's what he's saying here. 1 John 1:8 tells us that we ALL sin; and to believe otherwise makes use liars ( Johns' words, not mine ). Do you believe we must/can be perfect ( here on earth ) and we have no hope of eternal life unless we are ? Help me understand your line of thinking.

Cheers,

Tim

[Pilgrim7]

1DIEM,

Hold fast, your not alone, although it may seem so. Remember it was the learned teachers and religious leaders who gave Christ so much trouble because he didn't consult them, but taught directly from the Holy Spirit. They were angry because Jesus did not go to the school of the Rabbis and listen to their teaching, but was taught directly of God by the Holy Spirit.

Did you ever notice that the OSAS believers, never talk about sanctification, the work of growing up into the full stature of Christ. They meet every mention of works required with the words, 'we are not under law, but under grace.

They don't understand that legalism has not to do with obedience to God, but with the motive for the obedience. The true believer loves to obey, for the law of God has been written in the heart. The legalist obeys because he thinks he will be rewarded, or just to keep out of hell, that is legalism.

God bless and keep,

Dennis