pre tribulation

[Moby]

The sum of our Father's Word only teaches a postrib resurrection/rapture as the year of wrath commences.

Here is a simple timeline of the 7 years of Tribulation followed immediately by 1 year of wrath. All the scriptures in this link fit nicely into this timeline:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

This new format that compresses the forum discussion with a bunch of history is totally unnecessary!

Edited October 13, 2020 by Moby

[TheBlade]

On 9/23/2020 at 4:06 PM, Mike Mclees said:

Are the pre tribulationists still here?. Are any mysteriously gone. There has been many denoms who preached this doctrine so there must be a huge dent in our population that would be gone. 

Lets see.. some day soon Christ will set foot on the earth and gathers the nations that came out of the great tribulation. He splits them. To one group He CHRIST says "if you've done it to the least of these MY brethren you did it unto me"

So those "pre-trib" your talking about? They way you said it.. you said it to a GOD about HIS Children. Remember how He talked to Saul/Paul? "And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Paul never once touched Jesus. believing in JESUS praise GOD.. still does not give you or ME a right to talk how ever we wish. Some one does the same to YOU? They did it to HIM! We really need to remember this.

Jesus said He went to make you a home yes? Jesus said He will come get you /receive you unto Him self so WHERE He is you will be yes? So since we were never promised tomorrow and since there is NO verse for PRE MID nor POST maybe leave each moment as if THIS is the moment He is coming. Live in the moment He gave you. Be ready now or you will not be ready later. If you ME can't live for JESUS Christ whom we SAY we love now.. we never will later.
 

[Ray12614]

Frankly, I honestly do not care when the rapture happens. Other than a good hearty doctrinal debate, I think it is an small matter compared to being about the Masters business, reaching people for Christ, living our lives in a God fearing, Christ loving manner. No matter when He comes back for His church (Pre-Mid-Post tribulation), I want to be found doing the Master's will for my life.

But, I might not know as much as the smarter brothers and sisters majoring on this topic. Maybe one of them can help me out as to why I should argue about something that is clearly in God's control and not mine?

Grace and Peace . . . 

Ray . . . 

[Moby]

29 minutes ago, Ray12614 said:

Frankly, I honestly do not care when the rapture happens. Other than a good hearty doctrinal debate, I think it is an small matter compared to being about the Masters business, reaching people for Christ, living our lives in a God fearing, Christ loving manner. No matter when He comes back for His church (Pre-Mid-Post tribulation), I want to be found doing the Master's will for my life.

But, I might not know as much as the smarter brothers and sisters majoring on this topic. Maybe one of them can help me out as to why I should argue about something that is clearly in God's control and not mine?

Grace and Peace . . . 

Ray . . . 

Good morning brother Ray!

I don't think it is healthy for any brother or sister to argue about any scripture. But I do know there is a promised blessing for understanding our Father's Word about His book of Revelation which includes the timing of the resurrection/rapture:

Revelation 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

I am sure you agree that we must speak as an oracle of God when it comes to any of the subjects of His Word:

1 Peter 4:11  if any man speaketh, speaking as it were oracles of God; if any man ministereth, ministering as of the strength which God supplieth: that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, whose is the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So it would be better to say nothing rather than speak falsely when it comes to our Father's prophesies which includes being removed from His book of life:

Revelation 22:18-19  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  (19)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Here is the best teaching yet that I have found on the timing of His rapture:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

[Dennis1209]

On 9/24/2020 at 6:31 AM, JTC said:

It can indeed happen at any time. And this whole corona pandemic makes it seem as if it will. However, IMO it's still a long time away.

Really JTC, why do you think so? 

Regardless of one's view of the timing of the Rapture [pre, mid, post], it has to be getting very close because of the 'convergence' of everything prophetic we see shaping up and aligning. Just to single out only one prophetic event of dozens, the Gog-Magog invasion of Israel. It's rapidly aligning piece by piece according to scripture. So IMO, seeing all these things shaping up that could occur at any moment pertaining to the advent of the start of the tribulation. I believe it's at the door...

[Dennis1209]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:35 AM, Josheb said:

How close, exactly, is it?

Saying something can happen anytime is not the same as saying it will happen soon. 

These same people claiming the rapture is close also say the signs are occurring. They fail to see the contradictions between those two statements. The rapture can't/won't happen (in their eschatology) until the signs are done. Take the temple being built, for example. Never mind the fact there's not a single explicit statement in the entire Bible stating a third temple will be built, the pre-tribbers and pre-mils say there will be. Well that will take many years to build, especially if it's built on its old site (the Muslims will have something to say about that). So the rapture is not going to happen this week, this month, nor next. It won't happen this year or the next, or the next, or the next. The signs haven't been fulfilled. 

And if you ask them what the word "soon" means you'll either get no answer or get yelled at with derision. Again the irony of the last response appears to escape them because those with enmity, dissension, divisiveness, and factionalism will not inherit the KoG according to Gal. 5. 

 

Jesus quite plainly stated the disciples would be handed over to persecution and tribulation and that would occur before the sign of his return. Jesus used the days of Noah as a comparison. In the days of Noah it was the ones who remained who lived within God's covenant. It was those who were taken away by the flood that were destroyed. 

Apples to oranges. Statement of fact: We don’t know the day nor the hour but, we are given to know the season and to be watching. Season implies obvious changes from one state to another, from apparent dead brown trees and grass, to blooming flowers, green grass and leaves budding on trees for example. If one is paying particular attention, watching and noticing, it’s obvious and you know it’s about time to plant the fields.

Soon; is from ones perspective and doesn’t assign a precise date. 2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Your soon may not be my soon.

The word ‘trinity’ is not in the Bible, in fact the word Bible is not even in the Bible, but we see it there. With the well documented historical facts, that the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem no longer exists, that the Temple was left with not one stone upon another. Titus’s 10th Legion in 70 AD. burned it down and ransacked it, can we agree there is no existing Temple standing in Jerusalem at present?

Matthew 24:15 (KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand [emphasis added]. Daniel 9:27 (KJV) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 12:11 (KJV) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

From the above and Jewish worship practices and the Holy place, it’s obvious that there has to be a 3rd Temple built. This did not occur while the Lord walked in the flesh here on earth; and He predicted the "soon" destruction of the 2nd Temple about 38 years after His ascension to Heaven.

Are you familiar with the Temple Institute? All the implements required for Temple service and sacrifice are made and ready. Through DNA testing, the tribe of Levi and the rest have been identified. The priests have already been selected and trained for Temple sacrifice, service and worship. The Red Heifer has now been bred without spot nor blemish. Construction plans for the third Temple have been drafted; and I wouldn’t be surprised if much of it has already been prefabricated. Experts surmise the Temple could be rebuilt in as little as one year.

At present, whom controls the Temple Mount, the Dome of the Rock [Al-Aqsa Mosque]? Notice all the ‘Arab’ nations now lining up to make peace with Israel [Abraham Accord] and restore relations? The nations lining up and moving their embassy’s from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem now?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is supposedly the 3rd most holy site for Muslims. I won’t go into detail but, the fighting is between Islam’s two most holy sites in Saudi Arabia [Mecca – Medina]. Iran wants them badly and is fighting for them. So many things can happen so quickly [SOON], to make the Jewish Temple site available.

[Dennis1209]

On 9/25/2020 at 11:03 AM, Chicken coop2 said:

I didn't know I was special.  Are you special? 

You bet I am, all my life! To be brief; from elementary school, I've always been treated 'special', I had my own personal space in the front corner of the classroom with my special pointed hat! All my teachers nick named me "Little Johnny". Even today, as soon as I walk through the church door, our Pastor rushes to me and points to the front pew and says, "Little Johnny, sit here, so I can keep a personal eye on you!"  

[Dennis1209]

16 minutes ago, Josheb said:

It's a fairly simple question: how close, exactly, is it. If it is obvious and you know then there's no problem answering that question. How close is it?

 

This is important because Christians who subscribe to that particular eschatology are constantly saying "It's close," or "It's soon," but when asked about the "close" or "soon" the answer is always what you've just don't = not answering the question. 

When Jesus uses the word "soon" he means soon. When he said, "You will see..." he meant those to whom he was talking, not those to whom he was not talking (like those not yet born who would be living 20 centuries later. The word "soon" does not mean "20 or more centuries later." Neither does the word, "close." The word "trinity" may not be in the Bible, but the words, "soon," "close," "near," and "at hand" are. Jesus did not say, "When people yet to live see the tree puts forth its leaves they will know." No, he said "you" would know. The "you" in that verse is the disciples to whom he was speaking. All the mentions of "you" in that entire chapter are about the disciples with whom he was walking, standing, or sitting, the ones to whom he was directly speaking. Get out your Bible and see for yourself.

 

 

So I ask you to man up and put some meat behind your words and stand on them. How close, exactly, is it? 

And if you do not know then say, "I do not know" and stop telling people it is close when you do not actually know that to be true. 

Exactly how close is it?

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [emphasis added]

To explain "soon", I'll leave it to the experts: ταχέως tachéōs, takh-eh'-oce adverb from G5036; briefly, i.e. (in time) speedily, or (in manner) rapidly:—hastily, quickly, shortly, soon, suddenly.

[JTC]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Really JTC, why do you think so? 

I rarely tell anyone this and I don't expect many to believe me. For many yrs I kept asking God what's this world all about, because this world is screwy, it doesn't make sense. Some yrs ago I finally received an answer. Part of it was God is building Himself a group of souls that He can trust completely and who He can use in the next world. So God has a quota that only the Father knows, which is why Jesus couldn't say when He'd be back. I didn't believe God really said that until I heard Michael Heiser say almost the same thing, concerning the end of the End. Michael Heiser's version is a little different but the end will happen when the Father has enough saved souls so He can proceed to the next phase of His master plan. He doesn't have them yet. But it has nothing to do with disasters. This is why I don't think the end will happen tomorrow.

[John Robinson]

Some of you may (or may not) know I'm a writer with several published novels out, and about twenty years ago the Lord gave me an idea for an end-times novel with a plotline that frankly blew me away. Bear in mind, most of the stuff I do has been been published by Christian houses--the exception being Pitfall, which I did under the pen name Cameron Bane and was published by a secular house--but I wasn't sure how it would be received by Christians.

Anyway, a Christian house did finally pick it up and it came out in 2010 as Heading Home. When that house finally folded and the rights were returned I put it up on Kindle myself as Last Call.

Over the years it's gotten a lot of great Amazon reviews, blessing most Christians while sending some into nearly an apoplectic fit.