Starise Posted October 26, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,125 Content Per Day: 9.67 Reputation: 13,656 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Josheb said: Did God's kingdom exist at the time of Jesus' incarnate ministry? I had a joke in here but decided to remove it. I don't think you know when I'm kidding yet and I didn't want to chance a misunderstanding. I really think we need to define kingdom in the multiple contexts in which it has been used. When most people think of a kingdom they are thinking of a geographical location. The word itself is old world. When was the last time someone told you they were gong to visit a "kingdom"? There was the Wild Kingdom- That was a nature TV show by Mutual Of Omaha. There's the Disney kingdom. Mickey mouse and his buds. If I go to Canada, no one says I entered the kingdom of Canada. It's always referred to as a country. I read the term in medieval fiction. A kingdom being a country or state ruled by a king or queen, hence the term "king"dom. Not sure why they don't call countries ruled by queens Queendoms but I digress. Would they call a country ruled by an ex con a.....never mind. I said all of that to say that the most modern equivalent to the term is a country as we know it now. This is one reason I think this parable is often misunderstood. This is also why Jesus was misunderstood sometimes when talking about His Kingdom. The Lord's prayer- " Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Clearly indicates that this example of God's kingdom has not yet arrived. Could a part of it be here now though? I think yes, just as was mentioned by the poster above. God's kingdom is ALSO be in us, but not in the sense that His kingdom has arrived. Not in the sense that Yahweh is given total allegiance on planet earth as king. In heaven this is the case. His will IS done in heaven. We carry the citizenship of heaven in a hostile foreign territory. As such, we are a little bit of the kingdom on earth if Christian. So depending on the context of your question it could be answered either way. Did the kingdom exist on earth? Yes back when Yahweh resided in Eden. Or are we talking about God's kingdom in heaven? A kingdom that is both spiritual and geographical with the main thrust of it as taught in the Bible being a spiritual kingdom that will be an eventual location. We could say the queen is over England, this is her Kingdom then, yet her place of occupancy is in the palace in England. In a similar way, the kingdom can be anywhere God want's it to be, but His palace is in heaven. Today we wrestle against principalities and powers, these are spiritual strongholds. These are seen as spiritual territory markers. These are the worms in the kingdom apple. Men tend to see very one dimensional. In the spiritual world there are markers too. When the kingdom returns in totality, all of these strongholds will be destroyed and the evil spiritual forces defeated. Each Christian is a grim reminder to the other side that we are inching towards victory of total kingdom control through the almighty King of Kings Yahweh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted October 27, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,125 Content Per Day: 9.67 Reputation: 13,656 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2020 It was Jesus who was giving instructions on how to pray when He quoted the Lord's prayer as you know. Jesus who was the kingdom come in the flesh also said to pray the kingdom would come to earth as it is in heaven. If we don't see the context this seems contradictory. Jesus was the kingdom come incarnate, but the world did not accept Him. This parable speaks of the field being the world. The parable refences the end when the tares will be burned up. This means the parable covers more than one small segment of time or one group of people. I am aware that Matthew was written to the Jews as Jesus was ministering to the Jews specifically, however we are grafted into that lineage through Jesus . While I think context in knowing WHO Jesus was addressing is important, many of the things Jesus said in Matthew are just as applicable to us today. Wouldn't you agree we still have tares around? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted October 27, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2020 14 hours ago, FrankIeCip said: Not trying to jump in here. I think Don was referring to Luke 17 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Sorry just thinking. Thanks. 14 hours ago, FrankIeCip said: And yes the completion or fullness of the kingdom is still coming. I don’t believe it’s complete yet or I don’t think we would still be here. The long suffering of our Lord is salvation. I think there are still some of God’s elect not yet born again. (Baptized by the Holy Spirit) Thank you, yes! It is rightly understood that we see Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus said, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 6:39) Likewise, with respect to both Old and New Testaments, we see ourselves. Why? Because we are as Christ in the world (1 John 4:17). Christ is in us! The life we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved us and give Himself for us. There is no part of the Bible that isn't "for us." Everything written down is for us. Even when we read the curses of the law in the books of the law, we realize that Jesus took all those for us, and so we realize His love for us. And when we read the blessings offered Israel in the Old Testament, we realize that we are Israel, spiritually, and that Jesus Christ has secured all those blessings for us! When we read about Christ in the flesh, we realize, as John said in the Scripture I referenced, we are as He is in the world, and Christ dwells in our flesh. And so if the Bible testifies of Christ, it testifies of us, because Christ is in us. Now, Christ in us only became a reality at Pentecost. This rebirth occurs at Holy Spirit baptism, which is also the circumcision "without hands" (Col 2:11) - the circumcision of Christ. For we are the circumcision which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and and have no confidence in the flesh (Phi 3:3). Christ being in us, we are children of the kingdom. And this realization of the kingdom supersedes any previous understanding of the kingdom of God. When we consider the kingdom of God, we should realize that we are in it, if we're in Christ, and so this is what all the prophecies testify of! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted October 28, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,125 Content Per Day: 9.67 Reputation: 13,656 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 Whoa there Mr Thesaurus! Here's what I'm going to do. I have already clearly stated my views on the "kingdom" You have already more than clearly stated your views. Actually it's overkill for this discussion. Note that the "kingdom" wasn't originally a part of the discussion. Somehow we ( or maybe it was only you) diverted to that subject. The closest approximation I can find to the original intent of the thread concerning this parable and the kingdom of God was maybe as it pertains to the world in the parable. Here's what I'm GOING to do. As originator of the thread I would like to ask for some other input. I appreciate yours, but frankly I would like to hear from someone else. I think we need to keep these discussion to the core ideas or things tend to get all muddled. Have a Good Day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 29, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,878 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,770 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2020 It's noted that Jesus talked about inheriting the Kingdom in his time and that was before the Cross...He never said or sent at that time his disciples to preach to the Jews believe in Jesus Christ who died for your sins...this happened after the Cross and the resurrection.... The point in question to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah after he died on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins...and he is the heir of Heaven and everyone who believes in him is also a heir in Heaven by DEFAULT when they believe... Does not include that by DEFAULT that every believer has enter the kingdom of God... Jesus never said that everyone who believes in him by DEFAULT has enter the kingdom of God... To the contrary he said believers who practiced iniquity not that are not saved, but they will not enter the kingdom of God till they repent and forsake their iniquities and do not pick up new ones.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speks Posted October 29, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 192 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2020 Through Christ’s work there are people in the world who belong to His kingdom. But the devil, taking advantage of those who are asleep, is also at work raising up those who belong to him. To avoid disrupting all those who belong to Christ, those who belong to the devil must not be removed at the wrong time. At the end of the age, following a time of great distress, Christ will suddenly appear in the sky. He will send out His angels who will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace (see Matthew 3:12). “Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father” (v. 43). Although not highlighted in this parable, it’s definitely thought-provoking that those who belong to the devil may in some way appear similar to those who are Christ’s. (Darnel is a weed that looks similar to wheat.) But it’s interesting to note a couple of things Christ is teaching. The devil keeps busy when Christ’s people are asleep. Believers would be impacted if unbelievers were gathered out of the world before the end of the age. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speks Posted October 29, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 192 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Jesus stated quite plainly the kingdom had already come (Mt. 12:28; Lk. 11:20), but Paul also taught the kingdom was something inherited in the future by those already in the kingdom (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:21). It's interesting too that in Matthew 13 the sons of the kingdom are in the world, and those who are the devil's are gathered out of this kingdom*, and after the completion of the age (the "harvest"), those who are righteous will shine forth in "the kingdom of their Father." *"...the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous" (v. 49). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 29, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,878 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,770 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2020 There are examples to show how Jesus Christ gathered the weeds of Peter and the other disciples before the Cross or how he attempted to gather their weeds and at that specific time did not happened but it happened at some time later on. After the Cross we have examples of how Jesus Christ did the same thing with his disciples and not only with them as these are examples for us to know that is part of the kingdom of God that the same thing will happen and it is happening with everyone of us whether we are conscious about our misanderstandins or not... Jesus saying that God will sent his Angels to gathered the weeds as this was said before the Cross he could not say the Holy Spirit... Or some of his believers or each and every one of us to some specific aspects. And that also includes the Angels the Heavenly ones and us, we are also the messager(s) of God of the good news... No one is in perfect understanding of the things of God and his Christ Jesus and we grow maturing and being continually corrected or as in this parable weed out... Or as Jesus Christ explained to his disciples after the Cross.... That time being more specific with the example of the vineyard... John 15: 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. Jesus in both examples he is dealing with his own...and he is telling us that not everyone will accept correction and along with the message of the Cross they will include a lot of things not from Jesus Christ...the emphasis is that they are still believers in the Cross of Jesus Christ but they are disciples of the order or the group they served. Or maybe both... Still saved if they hold the Cross... We see the same situation as in the churches in revelation 2: and 3:. Jesus is not Judging their faith in him that he died on the Cross for our sins... Jesus Christ only is Judging in these examples their way of doing things and their refusing to be corrected... Telling us that not all his sheep will accept his correction... He said I have sheep in other folds.. Jesus is giving us warnings that many of his own will preach a version of the Gospel with the Cross in it but not the way he intended but still are saved... They are the disciples of their seminary and their teachers and according their denominations... They are not lost...still under the Cross... The pruning can happened in this life...if not at the time of their death...when they are with Jesus they will stopped instructing Jesus how to Judge...they cannot do in Heaven what they were doing in Earth...sitting in the Judgement Throne of their denominations... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted October 29, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,125 Content Per Day: 9.67 Reputation: 13,656 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 On 10/28/2020 at 12:30 PM, Josheb said: Fair enough but let's first set the matter at hand correctly. My op-reply to this op can be found on the second page of posts in this thread. In that post I pointed out the parable was about the kingdom This is clearly stated in the parable and I clearly stated it was clearly stated therein. The fact that the parable is about the kingdom is self-evident from the parable itself. In addition to repeating what the parable clearly states, I offered a few other select scriptures in direct answer to the questions asked in the op. I'm gonna repeat that: I answered and addressed your questions. The matter of the kingdom and its nature and attributes began when my comments about the kingdom were disputed by another poster. Anyone and everyone is free to engage that tangent as they feel led... ...but my answers to your original questions have not been engaged by you or anyone else. You ask if there are tares among the wheat, do they know they are tares, and what should we (presumably the wheat ) do about it. Scripture provides us several directives. I have mentioned only a few (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 13, and Titus 3). I could also add Ephesians 4 Proverbs 15, or Colossians 4:5-6, or other passages addressing the concerns of this op but I think it best if we take the answers a few at a time (hence my mention of only three passages to begin with). The point is I have addressed "the original intent" of the op and have not received an op-relevant response from you or anyone else. So please don't make my contribution all about "the kingdom" when that's a small portion of my op-reply. If you don't want to discuss the nature of the kingdom further then the answers I've provided to your specific inquiries are still available for you and I to discuss. Romans 12 tells us how to treat tares in-house and outside the faith. 1 Corinthians does too. Titus 3 is predominantly an in-house text (as are most of the NT epistolary texts). Do please feel free to express your views on Romans 12:9-21, 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a, and Titus 3:9-11 as they apply to the specific questions asked in this thread's opening post. Josheb, this is the difference between you and me. I'm not "engaging", a term you used in referring to this discussion. That sounds like a battle or something. I'm trying to politely "discuss". Although you say most of the right things as far as I can tell, you go about it like the supreme authority on the subject. I think we are all here to learn, including you. WE can all learn something new. Your methods of making others who don't immediately follow your line of thinking appear dull or unstudied have absolutely nothing to do with Christian love and come off like someone who thinks they know everything and is determined to ram it all down our throat. I was reading back over some of it and honestly can't figure out what all of the fuss ( mainly coming from you) is about. We have essentially agreed and said the same things only maybe from different vantage points. You have a valid point about the kingdom. I see now where it fits into your mindset. We aren't "engaging" here as in a battle ( your words). Nothing to defend. The Bible stands on it's own. It's us who need to understand it better sometimes. Belittling, even if it seems passive aggressive, lack of patience for people younger in the Lord who need to come up to speed on some of this doesn't make anyone better than another. For me at least- My question were centered more around who these tares are and where they are. I think this has been answered as well as could be expected. Thanks to all of those who are either contributing or have contributed. Let's just keep in mind not everyone is on the same page and we sometimes need to be brought onboard. This isn't a sin. It's called learning. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speks Posted October 29, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 192 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2020 22 minutes ago, Josheb said: "It's interesting...?" Okay. It's interesting. I don't find what Jesus said remarkable at all given God is the Creator of all that has been made What I find "interesting" is how many here don't understand what you've said and how many argue the opposite. I'm not quite sure I get where you're coming from here, but it doesn't really matter. What does interest me is the biblical contexts of the kingdom overall, as you've pointed out, and the fact that those who belong to the devil are gathered out of it in the world. If I was a teacher I'm thinking there's a 'sermon' here! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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