Controversial Christian topics with practical differences based on belief

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, NotAllThere said:

I do know a fervent creationist who considered that if you don't believe in creationism, then you're calling God a liar, and therefore you're not saved.

You may have heard of cognitive dissonance which is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioural decisions and attitude change.

Whenever I encounter Theistic Evolutionists I make them aware of the inconsistency of their belief with the Bible, particularly the doctrines in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. As gently as possible for me I inform them that they cannot hold a belief in Theistic Evolution and consider themselves Bible-believers at the same time.

Another example of cognitive dissonance I have encountered is a dogmatic belief that by accepting Christ as our Saviour we are now perfect. This became a big issue in one fellowship I was part of and the profoundly ironic situation developed wherein the new young leader and his wife who were pushing "perfectionism" singled out those who did not endorse it for rebuke and correction. . . something you would assume isn't needed among those who have accepted Christ as their Saviour if doing so makes them perfect.

[teddyv]

This is perhaps a bit off-topic, or at least a digression:

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Whenever I encounter Theistic Evolutionists I make them aware of the inconsistency of their belief with the Bible, particularly the doctrines in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. As gently as possible for me I inform them that they cannot hold a belief in Theistic Evolution and consider themselves Bible-believers at the same time.

What is of interest to me is: if I cannot be considered a Bible-believing Christian because of a soteriological difference, what is that mean? Am I in, or out? Can I fellowship with you? Am I saved? As NotAllThere relayed to his experience with certain creationists, I've in the same place many times over the years as well.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

This is perhaps a bit off-topic, or at least a digression:

What is of interest to me is: if I cannot be considered a Bible-believing Christian because of a soteriological difference, what is that mean? Am I in, or out? Can I fellowship with you? Am I saved? As NotAllThere relayed to his experience with certain creationists, I've in the same place many times over the years as well.

From a long time we did not have the bible and when we had it most people could not read...but they were still saved..

You are born from above, that's what you need to know and this is because Jesus Christ was from above and that's where he is..

That's the only thing you need to know and that  you are co-heir of Heaven together with Jesus Christ our EVERLASTING PATRIARCH AND LORD. 

Jesus Christ knew that his people will argue about many too many things but he left like that for his own reasons...

He did not right a book himself because he lives forever more...

He knows that cannot loose anyone who believes in him who died for the forgiveness of our sins...

He knew how the children of Abraham lived in fear of talking about the things of God risking their lives....to be accused of heresy and stoned to death...and risked to be thrown in Gehenna, but not alive, only their body after they had them Killed, refusing to them even a burial...

They also plan to do this to Jesus Christ but he expose them, bringing their secret thoughts to open...and they were terified but some of them believe. 

Jesus Christ took that fear away from his people in the New Testament.

Because they are under the blood of the Cross.

Who saves imperfect people who die in imperfection. 

He saves them in his grace through faith in his death on the Cross. 

 

 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

This is perhaps a bit off-topic, or at least a digression:

What is of interest to me is: if I cannot be considered a Bible-believing Christian because of a soteriological difference, what is that mean? Am I in, or out? Can I fellowship with you? Am I saved? As NotAllThere relayed to his experience with certain creationists, I've in the same place many times over the years as well.

Hi teddyv. Can be more specific about the soteriological difference you have in mind. I have family members who think they are Christians because they were sprinkled as babies by a priest who said they were now members of the body of Christ. In a public assembly, and to some extent, in a home group the general rule of association is don't pull up the tares or weeds because that will disturb or uproot the wheat.

Obviously if someone is disruptive and ill-disciplined this needs to be addressed, but if the congregation leader's teenage son is suspected of being gay or a serial fornicator but is also interested in Christianity it is better they remain in fellowship to hear the Word of God which may eventually fall on fertile soil, take root and produce fruit unto repentance. 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Hi teddyv. Can be more specific about the soteriological difference you have in mind. I have family members who think they are Christians because they were sprinkled as babies by a priest who said they were now members of the body of Christ. In a public assembly, and to some extent, in a home group the general rule of association is don't pull up the tares or weeds because that will disturb or uproot the wheat.

Obviously if someone is disruptive and ill-disciplined this needs to be addressed, but if the congregation leader's teenage son is suspected of being gay or a serial fornicator but is also interested in Christianity it is better they remain in fellowship to hear the Word of God which may eventually fall on fertile soil, take root and produce fruit unto repentance. 

They are saved because of their faith that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for their sins...Jesus saves them because of their faith in him..

The Anglican church is teaching that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins and believe in the resurrection...

They are not in their sins...

[teddyv]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi teddyv. Can be more specific about the soteriological difference you have in mind. I have family members who think they are Christians because they were sprinkled as babies by a priest who said they were now members of the body of Christ. In a public assembly, and to some extent, in a home group the general rule of association is don't pull up the tares or weeds because that will disturb or uproot the wheat.

Obviously if someone is disruptive and ill-disciplined this needs to be addressed, but if the congregation leader's teenage son is suspected of being gay or a serial fornicator but is also interested in Christianity it is better they remain in fellowship to hear the Word of God which may eventually fall on fertile soil, take root and produce fruit unto repentance. 

I am speaking more specifically to your TE concerns, in particular the inability to be Bible-believing. My understanding, based on your references to Romans 5 and 1 Corinthian 15, is that this is a key part of it. It does comport with, for example, Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis as an important part of their reasoning for a literal stand of Genesis.

Forgive me if I've phrased that awfully. I'm not sure how to best get what I'm saying across.

[JohnR7]

9 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

I do know a fervent creationist who considered that if you don't believe in creationism, then you're calling God a liar, and therefore you're not saved.

NO ONE has creationism 100% right. Paul tells us in 1Cor 13:12 that we ONLY know in part: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known". When we get to Heaven we will have the opportunity to study up on this there and come a better understanding then what we have here at this time. 

To some degree the "part" we know maybe different from the part someone else may know.  

[warrior12]

We have today something that is tangible which is spoken of clearly in the word and which entire denomination claim has ceased.  Specifically referring to speaking in tongues.  If you visit a Pentecostal church and one that believes that the gift of tongues is for the believer  today, then you can see it being practiced and the manifestation of it with the accompanying acts.   There are difference in beliefs by Fundamental Baptist who insist that the gift of tongues has ceased while the Pentecostals believe it is alive and well.  Yet both seem to accept one another as brothers in Christ.  Or not ?. 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

We have today something that is tangible which is spoken of clearly in the word and which entire denomination claim has ceased.  Specifically referring to speaking in tongues.  If you visit a Pentecostal church and one that believes that the gift of tongues is for the believer  today, then you can see it being practiced and the manifestation of it with the accompanying acts.   There are difference in beliefs by Fundamental Baptist who insist that the gift of tongues has ceased while the Pentecostals believe it is alive and well.  Yet both seem to accept one another as brothers in Christ.  Or not ?. 

The key is to agree not to argue about things unnecessarily. The Bible says not all have the same gifts so that's where I park the tongues issue. If anyone wants a knock down drag out fight about it they won't get one from me.

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, teddyv said:

I am speaking more specifically to your TE concerns, in particular the inability to be Bible-believing. My understanding, based on your references to Romans 5 and 1 Corinthian 15, is that this is a key part of it. It does comport with, for example, Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis as an important part of their reasoning for a literal stand of Genesis.

Forgive me if I've phrased that awfully. I'm not sure how to best get what I'm saying across.

Your reply is OK, teddyv. Being a Bible-believer is not high on the agenda of some who regularly fellowship in the congregation and denomination of their choice. I have come across sceptics who consider the Bible to be full of "fairy stories" but come into Christian fellowship, join groups and get on service rosters to avoid the isolation and loneliness they would otherwise be left with.

Also I have found myself engaging with some very needy people in congregations whose main reason for associating with Christians is to get charity in the form of goods, services, money, attention and sympathy, rather than education and enlightenment from things spiritual and theological. When questioned as to why I bother with such as these when it is obvious they are after handouts and freebies my answer is that in the first instant we should serve them as if it is us in their situation, but not to the point where we enable them to abuse our charity.