Sin disguised as Virtue?

[Unit 11]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I don't believe we should hate anyone, but we do have enemies. We are instructed to love our enemies without agreeing to their demands.

This reminded me of a quote from Martin Luther King Jr.:

"Let no man pull you so low as to hate him."

While on that page, I was reminded of another one, 

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that."

 

I really ought to hang these on my wall.

 

[Unit 11]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

Brotherly kindness and love do not concern themselves with the sanctity of one's neighbor nor is love preoccupied with rumors, accusation, denouncement and hatred, all of which are fruits of this world under the rulership of the evil one. It is rare to encounter one who professes Christ willing to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith; many prefer to audit their neighbor's business instead, believing themselves justified to govern his affairs. 

So I'm not the only one who's encountered this. Yeah, I know of what you speak... :p  But at least such people showed me how not to be. At the end of John's gospel, Christ calls out Peter for asking about John. "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!"

 

 

[Unit 11]

1 hour ago, rhomphaeam said:

Better to confess our own sins and then speak to our brother in a spirit of humility. 

You nailed it.

 

[Logostician]

Why are you calling this hate?  Did your friend or Mr Dobson say that they hated someone?  Just because someone sees that something is wrong does not make them a hater.  Nor does actually trying to right wrongs make someone a hater.  When a watchman stands at his post, does he become a hater when he alerts his city that an invading soldiers are breaching the walls? 

[Unit 11]

1 hour ago, Logostician said:

Why are you calling this hate?  Did your friend or Mr Dobson say that they hated someone?  Just because someone sees that something is wrong does not make them a hater.  Nor does actually trying to right wrongs make someone a hater.  When a watchman stands at his post, does he become a hater when he alerts his city that an invading soldiers are breaching the walls? 

Besides the general us-against-them vibe, during the seven years I attended this group, the leader and others spoke of the Clintons & liberals as threats...but never called upon us to pray for them. I never did so myself, nor heard anyone else do so, nor did anyone ever suggest it. They were The Enemy. There was no talk about loving the sinner & hating the sin, etc. I'll give three examples of what I mean:

Once I lent the leader a book by John McArthur titled Why Government Can't Save You. When he returned it, I found it all marked up with angry refutations in the margins, emphasized with exclamation points. I guess I could have foreseen this by the way he bristled and objected whenever anyone disagreed with Dobson, as McArthur did. He didn't ask me if he could write in my book, either.

When Clinton left office, I saw a newspaper lying on his kitchen table. It had a photo of the White House, with a moving van out front. He'd written above the picture, "YIPPPEEEEEEE"

And after Clinton's impeachment, when the acquittal news came over his desk radio, he got so furious that he grabbed the radio and threw it to the floor, smashing it. He told me this himself. 

I think his error (which I allowed to become my error as well) was in making Family and Country his cause, then getting so preoccupied with the cause that Christ faded into the background. Something else he never spoke of, that I can recall, was in becoming free from sin and being new people, whose minds are set on things above, whose citizenship is in heaven. Most of the talk was about Family, and how we needed to make America a nation more to our liking. And how the supposed enemies of family were out to get "our kids." Christ was little more than a figurehead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Logostician]

3 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

Besides the general us-against-them vibe, during the seven years I attended this group, the leader and others spoke of the Clintons & liberals as threats...but never called upon us to pray for them. I never did so myself, nor heard anyone else do so, nor did anyone ever suggest it. They were The Enemy. There was no talk about loving the sinner & hating the sin, etc. I'll give three examples of what I mean:

Once I lent the leader a book by John McArthur titled Why Government Can't Save You. When he returned it, I found it all marked up with angry refutations in the margins, emphasized with exclamation points. I guess I could have foreseen this by the way he bristled and objected whenever anyone disagreed with Dobson, as McArthur did. He didn't ask me if he could write in my book, either.

When Clinton left office, I saw a newspaper lying on his kitchen table. It had a photo of the White House, with a moving van out front. He'd written above the picture, "YIPPPEEEEEEE"

And after Clinton's impeachment, when the acquittal news came over his desk radio, he got so furious that he grabbed the radio and threw it to the floor, smashing it. He told me this himself. 

I think his error (which I allowed to become my error as well) was in making Family and Country his cause, then getting so preoccupied with the cause that Christ faded into the background. Something else he never spoke of, that I can recall, was in becoming free from sin and being new people, whose minds are set on things above, whose citizenship is in heaven. Most of the talk was about Family, and how we needed to make America a nation more to our liking. And how the supposed enemies of family were out to get "our kids." Christ was little more than a figurehead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a Christian conservative Republican.  I also served in the military for 8 years.  I chose Jesus, although he always chooses first.  I enlisted in the military.  But I didn't really choose conservatism or the Republican party.  I just knew that freedom was better than tyranny.  Promoting life was better than murdering unborn children.  Gay marriage is wrong.  The current glorification of BLM and antifa violence is wrong.  I know that driving Christianity out of schools and essentially all other areas of life is wrong.  I know that it takes parents and family, and not a village of people increasingly opposed to Christ to raise a child properly.  I know that government does not really care about anyone.  Only people are capable of caring.  So I agree with the founding fathers of this nation that government should be kept as small and unobtrusive as possible.  These and many other things are my values.  If I'm wrong, Jesus will judge me.  Values are the foundations of how we think and live, and they do enter the political realm, especially in a democracy, because we are choosing leaders.  I want Godly leaders who will look at Jesus as the ultimate authority of right and wrong, and what we should do and what we shouldn't do.

The world is the world.  And only Jesus can truly purify it when he returns.  And he will.  But if I condone the sins of this world, I become a partaker in those sins.  And I will not do that.  This may make me unpopular with some people.  But that's OK.  Jesus was unpopular with the worldly people who crucified him, even as he offered salvation to them.

Eze 33:6

But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned, if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand.

Psa 1:1

Blessed is the man walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Pointing out what is sinful will not make you popular.  The world revels in sin.  This is their idea of freedom...freedom from God.  If we stand by and say that's OK, let's all just get along, and pretend like anything and everything is OK, a lot of people will be eternally lost.  And Jesus may well ask us, Where were you?  Why did you abandon these people?

Hate is wrong.  It is actually love that should drive us to save people from eternal damnation. I never really liked Jonathon Edwards sermons, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" because the love of Jesus is what really draws people to him, much moreso than fear of eternal damnation drives them to him.  But the worst form of hatred is to stand by and watch people descend into hell without reaching out and trying to pull them up.

Agape love is a proactive love.  It is the works that the Epistle of James talks about.  It is more than patting someone on the hand and saying everything will be fine.  Agape love is active.  It does not hide itself.  It sees the bigger picture, which goes far beyond this world.  And it will sometimes offend those who are of this world.  But some of them will come out of this world to Jesus.  And there will be rejoicing in heaven for each one that does.  And the true watchmen will be rewarded as well.

 

 

 

[Unit 11]

I should note here that I've always been conservative in my thinking. I turned eighteen just in time to help vote Carter out and Reagan in. I also served under Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. for eight years in the Navy. I agree that government needs to remain small and stay off its people's backs.

And people on the left concern and perplex me. Do they really want to throw open our borders and just let whoever in? Why do they refuse to even consider President Trump's rationale for his wall? Another thing that turns me off is, whenever Republicans talk of tax cuts, the Dems always pull out the same class-envy objection--"it'll benefit the rich! You don't want that!" And there is no way in blazes I am ever voting for a candidate who actually approves of killing babies who haven't even had a chance to be born yet. 

As far as being a watchman, Paul does say not to participate in the "deeds of darkness," but even expose them. The point I'm making is that in that same letter to the Ephesians, he admonishes us to put away all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking, along with all malice. If you're always seething with hate, whoever it's against, something's wrong. 

The aforementioned Dr. King was a great example of this. He made a whole career of speaking out against injustice, but as far as I know, never spoke in terms of "We're the noble warriors fighting the villains who want to subvert America." 

(BTW, I've seen how thinking this us-against-them way spawns an attitude of superiority--"Yeah, we're the good guys and they're the bad guys! They don't get it, but we get it! They live in rebellion to God, but we're God's obedient saints!" etc.)

I believe my ex-leaders' error was, wittingly or not, putting Family and America on an equal footing with Christ. Do that, and the other thing is bound to eclipse Christ. They lost sight of the God who renews us into new people, even as they honored him with their lips. That's what it looked like to me, at least. I do know that after hearing the leader's words and how he says them, and seeing his actions, I would never want to be like him.

 

[Starise]

4 minutes ago, Unit 11 said:

I should note here that I've always been conservative in my thinking. I turned eighteen just in time to help vote Carter out and Reagan in. I also served under Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. for eight years in the Navy. I agree that government needs to remain small and stay off its people's backs.

And people on the left concern and perplex me. Do they really want to throw open our borders and just let whoever in? Why do they refuse to even consider President Trump's rationale for his wall? Another thing that turns me off is, whenever Republicans talk of tax cuts, the Dems always pull out the same class-envy objection--"it'll benefit the rich! You don't want that!" And there is no way in blazes I am ever voting for a candidate who actually approves of killing babies who haven't even had a chance to be born yet. 

As far as being a watchman, Paul does say not to participate in the "deeds of darkness," but even expose them. The point I'm making is that in that same letter to the Ephesians, he admonishes us to put away all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking, along with all malice. If you're always seething with hate, whoever it's against, something's wrong. 

The aforementioned Dr. King was a great example of this. He made a whole career of speaking out against injustice, but as far as I know, never spoke in terms of "We're the noble warriors fighting the villains who want to subvert America." 

(BTW, I've seen how thinking this us-against-them way spawns an attitude of superiority--"Yeah, we're the good guys and they're the bad guys! They don't get it, but we get it! They live in rebellion to God, but we're God's obedient saints!" etc.)

I believe my ex-leaders' error was, wittingly or not, putting Family and America on an equal footing with Christ. Do that, and the other thing is bound to eclipse Christ. They lost sight of the God who renews us into new people, even as they honored him with their lips. That's what it looked like to me, at least. I do know that after hearing the leader's words and how he says them, and seeing his actions, I would never want to be like him.

 

Excellent way to put this.

I think the early pilgrims had the right idea about evil but they often addressed it in the wrong ways. They knew there was evil about even in a young country. Since then the erosion has been slow and steady. I understand there is no utopia until the Lord does away with sin, evil, evil people, and sets up His perfect kingdom.

In the US we went from an abhorrent concern for evil both in our lives and in our countries dealings to two different churches of Satan...one of those promoting after school programs for kids. All in the name of freedom of religion. Some may argue this is a necessary evil. I think it's all designed to eventually make the US into a totally pagan Christian maligning country. In reality it won't be live and let live. It will end up being the opposite with us getting the short end of the stick.

I don't worry so much though because I think it's one of those things that God is fully aware of and He always lets the devils hang themselves. He turns evil into good. That the US is diving headlong into chaos as are other countries are all signs the end is coming upon us. Should we do nothing? No we should continue to do what we are called to do. Be salt and light where ever we are. The Bible tells us evil men and seducers will get worse and worse. I hate to say it because it isn't pretty, but if these are the end times then this is a very unwelcome expectation.

[Marathoner]

7 hours ago, Unit 11 said:

I should note here that I've always been conservative in my thinking. I turned eighteen just in time to help vote Carter out and Reagan in. I also served under Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. for eight years in the Navy. I agree that government needs to remain small and stay off its people's backs.

And people on the left concern and perplex me. Do they really want to throw open our borders and just let whoever in? Why do they refuse to even consider President Trump's rationale for his wall?

Therein lies the snare of the fowler, my friend. The belief that one faction of men are more godly than the other is nothing less than the work of Satan, he who weakens the nations (Isaiah 14:12). Remember that our Lord Jesus Christ spoke of the evil one as the ruler of this world.

I steer clear of it all for no matter which way we turn in this world, men lie in their pursuit of power. As far as the "left" is concerned consider former President Obama who, during his time in office, deported a record number of foreign nationals, more than any other president before him. Some will say "I am a Republican" and others will say "I am a libertarian" but as for myself, I am a Christian and follow the Lamb of God alone. He purchased us at great price from this fallen world.

[David1701]

On 11/20/2020 at 2:29 PM, enoob57 said:

Esau can be examined in Scripture and see why God hated him... God really meant nothing to Esau as he loved the created thing more than the One Who created it...

Read Romans 9 and you will see that God's love for Jacob and hatred for Esau were based on God's choice to show saving mercy to one hell-deserving sinner and not the other, not on one being less wicked than the other.

Jacob was a liar, a thief and a supplanter, deceiving his own father and stealing his brother's birth-right.  The ONLY reason that he was drawn to God in faith, is the free grace of God; grace that was not given to Esau.

Rom. 9:8-24 (EMTV)

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh are not the children of God; but it is the children of the promise that are regarded as descendants.
9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10 And not only this, but also Rebecca, having conceived from the one man, our father Isaac;
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? By no means!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to be answering back against God? Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Or does not the potter have the right over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?
22 But what if God, wanting to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and so that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles?

 

Regarding the OP: I very much doubt if Dobson hates Liberals.  It will be their sin he hates, not them.