Great tribulation

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, Josheb said:

Rev. 7 is not 1 Thes. 4. 

True. Rev. 6:16 and 1:7 are the time of the Rapture of 1 Thes. 4. Rev. 7:14 tells of "they which came out of the great tribulation" at the Rapture. So Rev. 7 is post-Trib and post-Rapture

Everything else you wrote is pure chutzpah.

[WilliamL]

On 12/9/2020 at 4:22 PM, Josheb said:

Argumentum ad nauseam. 

Since you have not posted a single biblical quotation in your last three posts that support your claims, there is no more reason to continue this discussion.

Argumentum ad nauseam indeed.

[Moby]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:16 AM, kenny2212 said:

Rev 7:14 - 

 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I used to think that the great tribulation in this passage referred to the final 7 years. I have now though come to the conclusion that it refers to the first 5 of the 7 seals.

Tribulation is only tribulation before God steps in. When God steps in it becomes God's wrath. Take for example the Israelites in Egypt - You would agree that they sure did have tribulation but that all changed when God stepped in. 

We've been told in the bible that only the 144000 Jews (out of all Christians) remain here (Rev. 7:1-8) during the final 7 years. They will be protected (verse 3) just as the Israelites were in Egypt.

Any questions or comments?

Thanks for reading.

The first 4 seals are opened during the first year of the 7 year tribulation. The 5th seal is opened at the midst and the sixth seal marks the end of the tribulation:

All the scriptures in this link fit nicely into this timeline:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

[iamlamad]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:17 PM, Moby said:

The first 4 seals are opened during the first year of the 7 year tribulation. The 5th seal is opened at the midst and the sixth seal marks the end of the tribulation:

All the scriptures in this link fit nicely into this timeline:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

Truth: VERY LITTLE in this chart shows the truth of scripture. You show a line to start the 7 years. That much is truth. You show a line to end the week, and indeed, it will end, but the week is exact: 1260 days / 1260 days. God knows how to divide in half.

[iamlamad]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:00 PM, WilliamL said:

True. Rev. 6:16 and 1:7 are the time of the Rapture of 1 Thes. 4. Rev. 7:14 tells of "they which came out of the great tribulation" at the Rapture. So Rev. 7 is post-Trib and post-Rapture

Everything else you wrote is pure chutzpah.

Seals 1-6 come one right after the other. But "stuff" happens before the 7th seal is opened. Why?

It's very simple: the 7th seal starts events that come with God's wrath. But God is going to make absolutely sure two events happen before He begins pouring out His wrath in the trumpets:

first, the 144,000 MUST be sealed before any trumpet is sounded. 

Second, the church must be seen safely in heaven. 

Both of these things are accomplished to God's satisfaction in chapter 7, so John can proceed with the 7th seal that officially starts the 70th week. 

Someone might wonder, "but WHEN did the church arrive in heaven?"

Since wrath (the day of wrath) begins at the 6th seal, I submit that the rapture comes just before the 6th seal is opened. I suspect the great earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction" that comes to those left behind at the rapture. 

In other words, God had to stick chapter 7 in between the 6th and 7th seals - right where we find it.

 

[iamlamad]

On 12/9/2020 at 4:51 PM, Josheb said:

That's not what the text actually states and the copy-and-paste eisegesis is an abuse of scripture. The Revelation text states what it states. I posted the scripture. It states he is sitting in heaven, not coming to earth. It is NOT a futurist version of 1 Thes. 4:17. That's just wrong. 

I don't discuss or debate things with folks who deny what scripture plainly, clearly states. 

We can discuss the meaning or the significance of what is stated but I'm not doing anything with anyone who will not accept and believe what is stated. When you face what is stated we'll talk, When what is stated is acknowledged we'll talk. Until then your copy-and-paste eisegesis is on record.

So is my response. 

Rev. 7 is not 1 Thes. 4. 

 

 

And the Church can be present during the wrath of God. The idea God always removes His people from tribulation is a myth. There are plenty of occasions wherein God left His people to experience travail for a variety of godly purposes. It's a bad theology, one that demonstrably refutable. All one need is Matthew 24:9, 21, and 29. The disciples will be handed over to tribulation, they will see it, and only afterward will the sign of the Son occur. That is what the text states! Why teachers feel the need to change what God's word plainly teaches is a problem, and it is because of that problem that much bad teaching ensues. 

And when posters post such dross in an effort to persuade others that too is a problem. If we cannot agree with God we will never agree with each other.

In Rev. 7 Jesus is still sitting in heaven, not on earth or in transit. That is just wrong. 

 

So go back to the guy from whom you got this idea 1 Thes. 4 is tied to Rev. 7 and re-examine it because s/he's not teaching scripture correctly. 

I submit that William is closer to the truth than you are. It is God the FATHER on the throne. It does not give any position for the Lamb. If you go back and really study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, you must ask why Paul spoke of the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after His classic rapture verse. Could it be because the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY? They why did Paul mention the wrath for which God will set no appointments with His kids: could it be just as Paul hints  - that WRATH follows hard after the rapture? The hint is, at the same time the righteous are raptured, those left behind suffer sudden destruction that comes with wrath,

[iamlamad]

On 12/7/2020 at 7:54 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hi Ron, 

Alright, let's try and sort this out.

First of all, you say...."I stated I know because of the verses in the bible that say that those who are in the 70th week tribulation can not be Judged until AFTER Jesus' Second Advent has started."

It sounds like you don't believe that Jesus' Second Coming (advent) begins when He comes in the clouds to welcome the resurrected and raptured believers to Himself?

Why is that?

His first Coming was quite complex.

Why do you think that His Second Coming is "simply" when He rides a white horse and defeats the nations....in Rev 19? 

Ok....Rev 20:4.....

 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of ^[a]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You said......"Its right there as lain as day in Rev. 20:4, ALL of those who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast are Judged AFTER Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ, False Prophet and the Dragon."

It looks to me that those who were "judged" were resurrected to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ( It doesn't say they were judged, it just says they came to life and reigned with Christ )

Now....isn't that the promise that the church is given....that they will rule and reign with Christ..... 2 Tim 2:12..."If we endure, we shall also reign with Him"

Let's look at the rest of Rev 20: 5-6

" The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Now I'm pretty sure that this is a recap of an event that took place earlier in Revelation. This is the "FIRST RESURRECTION". This includes ALL the Old Testament Saints and ALL the New Testament Saints (believers)....the ENTIRE Bride of Christ. WE will be PRIESTS of God and of Christ and WE will REIGN with HIM for 1,000 years!

Not all of Revelation is chronological. 

 

Not all of Revelation is chronological.   Outside of intermissions and parentheses, you will find it very difficult to prove this with scripture.

As I read it, John goes right through time: from early church to the rapture that ends the church age to the start of the Day and the 70th week, then ends the week and shortly after Jesus returns in power to Armageddon.  Then it is the 1000 year reign, and after that, the day of judgment and then a new heaven and earth. To me, that is very chronological. 

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since wrath (the day of wrath) begins at the 6th seal, I submit that the rapture comes just before the 6th seal is opened.

All the people of the earth only see the Father and Son after the 6th Seal is opened (6:16-17). That is when "every eye shall see" Christ in the clouds (1:7).

So, the cataclysms take place first, just as Jesus foretold in the Olivet discourse, and then He comes in the clouds for His elect, while every eye sees Him, and the Jews mourn because they recognize the one they pierced, and mourn for what they did to Him (Zech 12:10). And then God seals those of the Jews who repent and believe (Rev. 7:1ff.), which is partly why there is a leeway in time before the Wrath is carried out.

[JoeCanada]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Seals 1-6 come one right after the other. But "stuff" happens before the 7th seal is opened. Why?

Yes.... absolutely....they are sequential. Add the 7th seal in there as well.

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

the 7th seal starts events that come with God's wrath. But God is going to make absolutely sure two events happen before He begins pouring out His wrath in the trumpets:

first, the 144,000 MUST be sealed before any trumpet is sounded. 

Second, the church must be seen safely in heaven. 

You are batting 1,000.................. 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since wrath (the day of wrath) begins at the 6th seal

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

two events happen before He begins pouring out His wrath in the trumpets:

So here is where the problems start. First you say that "the 7th seal starts events that come with God's wrath.......THEN.... since wrath begins at the sixth seal..... THEN you state ...."He begins pouring out His wrath in the trumpets.

The seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. So God's Wrath does not begin until the blowing of the first trumpet. The 6th seal only announces God's wrath. It doesn't actually begin until the angel blows the first trumpet. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Someone might wonder, "but WHEN did the church arrive in heaven?"

Since wrath (the day of wrath) begins at the 6th seal, I submit that the rapture comes just before the 6th seal is opened.

Again, God's wrath does not commence until the first trumpet is blown.

"The Church arrives in heaven before"......

Well, lets look at the sixth seal. When the Lamb breaks the sixth seal.....there was a great earthquake, sun became black, the moon like blood, the sky splits apart, every mountain and island moved out of their place...... then the kings of the earth et al hide in the caves and says to the rocks "hide us from the presence of Him....the great day of their wrath has come......THEN.....the 144,000 are sealed......THEN.....AFTER THESE THINGS......I looked and a great multitude (appeared) in heaven.

If you maintain that John's order is chronological..... then you must follow John's order. The Church does not arrive BEFORE the 6th seal is opened, because that would still be at the 5th seal......even if you say its at the very end of the 5th seal....seconds before the 6th seal is opened...... that still makes it at the 5th seal.

And the Church doesn't even arrive at the very beginning of the 6th seal. All the other events listed above happen FIRST..... according to John's chronology.

And you have always maintained that "anyone who rearranges John's chronology to fit their doctrine will be proven wrong"

This IS John's chronology.

Even if you say that Rev 7 is a parenthesis, Rev 6 is not, so the chronology in Rev 6 at the 6th seal follows the sequences laid out above. 

The 144,000 are sealed..... then the church is seen in heaven....as Rev 7 shows. The 144,000 are NOT sealed in Chapter 6. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by JoeCanada

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

All the people of the earth only see the Father and Son after the 6th Seal is opened (6:16-17). That is when "every eye shall see" Christ in the clouds (1:7).

So, the cataclysms take place first, just as Jesus foretold in the Olivet discourse, and then He comes in the clouds for His elect, while every eye sees Him, and the Jews mourn because they recognize the one they pierced, and mourn for what they did to Him (Zech 12:10). And then God seals those of the Jews who repent and believe (Rev. 7:1ff.), which is partly why there is a leeway in time before the Wrath is carried out.

Read more closely. "hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Because they are sinners, they imagine God is seeing them in their sin. They imagine - and rightly so - that both God the Father and the Son have wrath towards them. After all, it is the start of the DAY of His wrath. These words do not tell us that they SEE God's face. After all, He is on the throne, and in a different dimension from earth. 

Look at it from Paul's point of view: He is the only writer of the New Testament who received revelation knowledge of the rapture.  He tells us that the rapture will happen when people are saying "peace and safety." Therefore, the rapture must come before the start of the DAY. Paul wrote of the DAY three verse after the classic rapture verse. He speaks of "sudden destruction" connected with wrath, that would come at the same moment as the catching up: WE get salvation (raptured) while THEY get sudden destruction.

It is without any doubt that "every eye will see Him" when He comes in power as shown in Rev. 19. There is nothing to even hint that every eye shall see Him at the rapture. They are two separate comings over 7 years apart.

It will be the jews who flee (12:6) who later, after the week ends, see Him and see the wounds. They are like Thomas: they will not believe in Jesus until the SEE HIM. Thank God, finally they will believe. 

Since Rev. 7 comes after the rapture  - the great crowd too large to number is the just raptured church - those 144,000 were not born again or they would have been raptured. Perhaps the rapture is what causes them to believe. 

Don't try to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory: that is a guaranteed way to be wrong every time.