Does "Sin" Prove Evolution to be Incorrect?

[The Barbarian]

On 12/22/2020 at 12:56 AM, kingdombrat said:

They also believe {dinosaurs] were around when Noah built the Ark.   So they have to get creative about the Arks dimensions [vs] who was allowed on board.   I am not "YEC" but I am a "Creationist" that believes in some of the Hebrew interpretations that would take the Earth to somewhere not immediate but before the "Ice Age."   And realistically [not] the "Ice Age," but the conditions that caused the "Ice Age."  

The evidence shows a number of ice ages, with warmer periods between them.   I suppose that "virtual history" could give you a logically consistent creationism that supposed one real ice age, and virtual others.    It just looks too much like Last Thursdayism to me.

 

[DSmith_TheHistorian]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:48 PM, The Barbarian said:

They've got it confused.   Evolution is an observed phenomenon.   There is a theory that explains it.   Remember, evolution is "a change in allele frequency in a population over time.   Evolutionary theory explains why this happens.    In science, a "theory" is an idea or group of ideas, with predictions that have been repeatedly confirmed by observation

There are many, many confirmed predictions of evolutionary theory, such as Darwin's prediction that early man would first appear in Africa, Huxley's prediction of transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds, and Darwin's prediction that a well-fitted population in a constant environment would be kept from changing very much by natural selection.

Would you like to see some more?

Change in an individual is not biological evolution.   As Darwin originally framed it, it's "descent with modification."    Populations evolve; individuals do not.   Darwinian evolution is new kinds of species evolving, not chemicals changing.   Most people who think they hate evolution, don't know what it is.

Darwin predicted wrong. Huxley predicted wrong (even though DNA evolution does occur naturally over time). DNA mutation is so minor that it wouldn't make a difference thousands of years later (because we true Christians know the earth is not millions of years old). If you want to get technical, historically, the New Testament is the oldest primary source in existence and the Old Testament follows right behind as a secondary source. How the heck would I know this to be true? Well, my MA degree in history helps out--and so does my faith and commitment to Christ and the Scripture.

“It begins when the Flood subsides. Noah plants a vineyard, makes wine, and falls into a stupor in his tent. Ham . . . sees his father's nakedness and tells his two brothers what has happened.... When Noah wakes up and learns what has happened, he lays a curse not upon Ham but upon Ham's son: 'Accursed be Canaan. He shall be his brothers' meanest slave.' . . . Whizzing forward to the medieval versions we learn more about the nature of Ham's misdeeds. He mocked Noah's nakedness, and invited his brothers to do the same (which they refused). What is more, this is not the first of Ham's transgressions. When they had all been on the Ark together, Noah had insisted that everyone be sexually continent, but Ham, by the aid of a magic demon, slept with his wife…”[1] And the Curse of Ham was in effect.

The Tower of Babel in Mesopotamia was the next “Fall of Man.” I wrote an article awhile back where I clarify the results of Babel and its destruction on humanity. The world was a wicked place in the days of Noah. Compared to most European lifestyles they were observed as disgraceful, disgusting, violent, immoral, and unethical societies and in those days, it was something horrific. Dr. David Leston wrote that “archaeologists have unearthed bodies of people who lived in Mesopotamia, they have found evidence that cannibalism was practiced. In short, this was a very brutal era, in which humanity showed little to no regard for one another.”[2]

He goes on to mention that in “January 1996 National Geographic did a comparison between rodeo riders and their injuries, and skeletons uncovered from the time of Noah. They found striking similarities between the injuries of the two groups, suggesting that this was a very violent society. When people reject God and the boundaries and purposes that He has created for them, they become a law unto themselves, and society becomes weaker and more dangerous.”[3] The net results are the same as always--extreme anarchy and a violent world. So, God flooded the world and spared the only honest and Godly man alive at the time. It was Noah who God gave the task of rebuilding civilization.

It was right after the Flood that people would repopulate the Fertile Crescent (the middle east). This was a very fertile and agriculturally productive area which was quick to develop and fought over heavily. One of humankind’s early technological developments was the ability to design, manipulate materials and make structures such as buildings. It was mankind’s obligation from God to subdue the earth. He ultimately gave mankind all the faculties necessary to create great constructions.

However, in man’s rebellion against God, this gift was used in ways to honor men and not Him—such as The Tower of Babel. This attempt at building a ziggurat mega-structure was humankind's next attempt at playing God. Just a note here—it will blow your mind to look at the similarities in the Mesopotamian ziggurat of biblical days and a typical ziggurat from South America.

In Genesis 11, the tower planners said “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”

The planners of course were referring to making a name for mankind above God’s name. God saw this ability of men to centralize power effectively for the purposes of glorifying themselves. He then—in an instant—created world languages to confuse the masses and dispersed them globally. This is where Dispersion across the globe took effect. This effectively explains human migration in the ice age, world language and similarities in technology worldwide. 

Since we are all come from the same origins, here is a diagram to show some more evidence that the roots are foundational...

 

Daniel L. Smith

1. Braude, Benjamin. "The Sons of Noah and the Construction of Ethnic and Geographical Identities in the Medieval and Early Modern Periods." The William and Mary Quarterly 54, no. 1 (1997), 103. doi:10.2307/2953314.
2. Dr. Leston, Stephen, and Christopher D. Hudson. "From Creation to the Tower of Babel | The Age of Noah." In The Bible in World History: How History and Scripture Intersect, 31. Uhrichsville: Barbour Pub, 2011.
3. Ibid. p. 32.

[RonaldBruno]

On 12/10/2020 at 2:21 PM, kingdombrat said:

Going back to the idea of Evolution.   If humanity arrived from the process of Evolution, wouldn't those be without [SIN}?

 

If Adam was [Created] by God, a special Creation because from Adam would eventually lead to the Messiah, once he fell he caused a sin chain reaction to take place in humanity from that point.

 

But if we have 2 [origins] to human life, Creation and Evolution, and through Creation it eventually led to a [sinful nature], are those humans [if Evolution is factual] free from sin because they are not from the Creation point of Adam?

 

The Bible claims [ALL] have sinned and fell short...((but isn't "ALL" meaning ALL that was from Adam?))...Does [SIN] actually disprove Evolution?

That's an angle I never thought of. Brilliant! You are absolutely correct, if we evolved without God, sin would not exist. We know sin because of God's Law/Commandments. He gave Adam and Eve one law to follow, "Don't eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". They failed. Then later on, He gave the Ten Commandments. From these we know what sin is. Without the Law, there is no sin and so of course without God, there is no law (unless it was manmade). 

[Guest kingdombrat]

7 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

That's an angle I never thought of. Brilliant! You are absolutely correct, if we evolved without God, sin would not exist. We know sin because of God's Law/Commandments. He gave Adam and Eve one law to follow, "Don't eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". They failed. Then later on, He gave the Ten Commandments. From these we know what sin is. Without the Law, there is no sin and so of course without God, there is no law (unless it was manmade). 

Thank You and Amen to your viewpoint!

[The Barbarian]

On 12/23/2020 at 5:46 PM, DSmith_TheHistorian said:

Darwin predicted wrong. Huxley predicted wrong

No, as you have seen, many, many of Darwin's predictions have been confirmed, as have Huxley's.  Would you like me to show you some more of them?

On 12/23/2020 at 5:46 PM, DSmith_TheHistorian said:

DNA mutation is so minor that it wouldn't make a difference thousands of years later

Less than 10% difference in DNA gives us the biological difference between humans and chimpanzees.   I'd say call that a substantial difference.

On 12/23/2020 at 5:46 PM, DSmith_TheHistorian said:

(because we true Christians know the earth is not millions of years old)

Most of the world's true Christians know the Earth is billions of years old.  Denying the age of the Earth doesn't mean you aren't a "true Christian"; it just means that you have accepted a non-orthodox view of Genesis.   Which is not a salvation issue.  You are no less a "true Christian" for imagining the Earth is a few thousand years old, than any other Christian.

On 12/23/2020 at 5:46 PM, DSmith_TheHistorian said:

When they had all been on the Ark together, Noah had insisted that everyone be sexually continent, but Ham, by the aid of a magic demon, slept with his wife…”[1] And the Curse of Ham was in effect.

Didn't see that in my Bible.   You have a verse?

On 12/23/2020 at 5:46 PM, DSmith_TheHistorian said:

He goes on to mention that in “January 1996 National Geographic did a comparison between rodeo riders and their injuries, and skeletons uncovered from the time of Noah. They found striking similarities between the injuries of the two groups, suggesting that this was a very violent society.

The study was on Neandertals, who were most likely a subspecies of our own, or at least a species close enough to interbreed with our own.    The most likely reason for their injuries were their hunting techniques.  They had no projectile weapons and closed in on large prey, stabbing them with spears.   Not surprisingly. they had injuries very much like another group of humans that come into direct conflict with large animals.

We know the story of the tower of Babel is not literal, since in the story God expresses concern that humans might build a tower tall enough to reach heaven.   God would certainly know better.    Hence the allegory of the tower.

 

[Guest kingdombrat]

On 12/23/2020 at 12:54 AM, The Barbarian said:

The evidence shows a number of ice ages, with warmer periods between them.   I suppose that "virtual history" could give you a logically consistent creationism that supposed one real ice age, and virtual others.    It just looks too much like Last Thursdayism to me.

 

God explains in the second Chapter of Genesis how on the designated day He scheduled, He created it in "Generations."  The verse reads, 4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,  Look at Adam, his generations of humanity resulted into the adult version.  Which means, God installed Adam from zygote to full grown man in terms of Generations.  On a [one day] time period, God created Adam skipping the generations of time required to reach maturity.   

And then God explains in Job He created Man same day as He created Behemoth [and clearly all animals as He continues with other Creation examples], 15Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.  No doubt from understanding Genesis Chapter 2, this verse from Job Chapter 40, gives us the idea the Behemoth {some arguing Bronto/Brachiosaurus} is Created separately but during same time frame as when He created humans.   And God compares it to an ox who eats grass.  So we see a glimpse here with God being clear there is time evolved in subplanting the Earth and giving it habitation.  But He reduced that period by speaking existence in the mature stages knowing the offspring would fulfill the complete process of growing by "Generations."

We could add "ice" to this theory.   God Created it all.   I see evidence of time.   Science see's it.   But it was made matured skipping "generations" to the process.   So it is not time Science is actually observing, but an Earth Created at a point that would normally require the time being this mature.

 

Verse 4 God even claims "generations" of the [h]eavens.   So, let's say God spoke the Universe into existence at the stage that would normally take 13.4 Billion years.   He creates it so we're measuring the microwave spectrum and natural expansion.  But He spoke it into existence in [one day] at the 13.4 Billion Years stage.  The Earth at the 4.5 Billion age stage.   Science is assuredly going to find generations of evidence.   But it also has them fooled.

[Guest kingdombrat]

But I believe what the Scripture is claiming, in a single day, God Spoke the Universe into existence at a generational/maturity point {let's use the 13.4 Billion year frame}, He spoke to a Specific Planet placing it from the sun to be a crucial key to life.   He set Earth into motion fully matured [to let's say 4.5 Billion years of age].   On Earth, He set life and Man fully matured.   We don't know what it is to God in how He views when mature begins at.   But we know He set all life forms loose on Earth in their "matured" stage, as He did the Earth and the Universe in a matured setting.

[The Barbarian]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:22 AM, kingdombrat said:

But I believe what the Scripture is claiming, in a single day, God Spoke the Universe into existence at a generational/maturity point {let's use the 13.4 Billion year frame}

That's not what scripture says.   That's what some people interpret it to say.

 

[Guest kingdombrat]

On 1/10/2021 at 9:54 AM, The Barbarian said:

That's not what scripture says.   That's what some people interpret it to say.

 

I agree, hence me bringing it up.   But it's still the same concept as claiming we don't know what consisted of a [Day] for God and applying it to "Evolution."  Both arguments are not what Scripture states.   What we do know Adam was an Adult Male ready to procreate.   And during a [nap] Eve was created capable of procreating, carrying, and birthing life.   And not much longer God instructs them to [be fruitful and multiply].   Those verses clarify Evolution is impossible here.   But they do kind of reveal how many {Generations} it takes from "zygote to being able to procreate" in terms of where God assigned Man into existence.

[The Barbarian]

3 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

I agree, hence me bringing it up.   But it's still the same concept as claiming we don't know what consisted of a [Day] for God and applying it to "Evolution."  Both arguments are not what Scripture states. 

Exactly.   Genesis is neutral on this issue.   You can be a creationist or an evolutionist and be consistent with Christianity.   Only if you insist that God has endorsed creationism or evolution in Genesis, do you commit error.