Riverwalker Posted January 5, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 1,753 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/09/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2021 I have always been of the opinion that Jesus is our good shepherd and pastors, no matter how good and devoted they are , are mere hirelings. Matthew 7 seems to be pretty explicit here. One Flock, One Shepherd Matthew 7:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. No doubt they are given charge over the sheep, to guide and teach them, but does imply ownership? Or am I just reading more into than there might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 There's a heftier price to pay for someone who oversees the flock compared to being part of the flock. What you claim by the "Word of God" becomes Gospel to the flock. You're either leading them to know God or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted January 5, 2021 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.30 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Riverwalker said: I have always been of the opinion that Jesus is our good shepherd and pastors, no matter how good and devoted they are , are mere hirelings. Matthew 7 seems to be pretty explicit here. One Flock, One Shepherd Matthew 7:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. No doubt they are given charge over the sheep, to guide and teach them, but does imply ownership? Or am I just reading more into than there might be? Jesus is the shepherd. Your pastor should be leading you to Jesus rather than assuming command himself. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted January 5, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,089 Content Per Day: 9.73 Reputation: 13,573 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2021 I think leader is a more apt term. Spiritual leader given charge of guidance for a group of believers. I think there can be more than one pastor and/or pastors in training. The church I now attend has an assistant pastor. What REALLY bothered me was at one church that pastor was in the regular habit of calling us "peeps". It felt very demeaning to me to be called that. Incidentally that church folded. I guess if we were the peeps that makes him the head pecker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiards Ball Posted January 6, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,502 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 662 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2021 On 1/4/2021 at 7:04 PM, Riverwalker said: I have always been of the opinion that Jesus is our good shepherd and pastors, no matter how good and devoted they are , are mere hirelings. Matthew 7 seems to be pretty explicit here. One Flock, One Shepherd Matthew 7:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. No doubt they are given charge over the sheep, to guide and teach them, but does imply ownership? Or am I just reading more into than there might be? Jesus is the Chief Shepherd over other shepherds. Many pastors take the analogy too far/become overly controlling, but elders who serve well win a Shepherd's Crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted January 6, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2021 On 1/4/2021 at 6:04 PM, Riverwalker said: I have always been of the opinion that Jesus is our good shepherd and pastors, no matter how good and devoted they are , are mere hirelings. Matthew 7 seems to be pretty explicit here. One Flock, One Shepherd Matthew 7:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. No doubt they are given charge over the sheep, to guide and teach them, but does imply ownership? Or am I just reading more into than there might be? I'd note that the verses quoted in the OP come from John 10 rather than Matthew 7 in case someone tries to look them up or wonders where they on my list below. From my Greek concordance of the NT, here are the verses in the NT which contain the Greek verb to shepherd: Matt 2:6, Luke 17:7, John 21:16, Acts 20:28, I Cor 9:7, I Pet 5:2, Jude 1:12, and Rev 2:27, 7:17, 12:5, and 19:15. The Greek noun for shepherd appears in: Matt: 9:36, 25:32, 26:31, Mark 6:34, 14:27, Luke 2:8,15,18,20, John 10:2,11,12,14,16, Eph 4:11, Heb 13:20, I Pet 2:25. I'm too lazy to cut and paste these all into this post. Here's a couple relevant ones which use the term with regard to human leaders. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,which he bought with his own blood. Acts 20:28 NIV (Paul speaking to the Ephesian elders.) Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” John 21:16 NIV ("Take care of" = Greek verb to shepherd) Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; I Peter 5:2 NIV So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, Eph 4:11 NIV. (Pastors = Greek noun for shepherds). Such passages as John 10 (Jesus as the Good Shepherd) or Psalm 23 (The LORD is my shepherd) are pretty clear. But I think it's also fairly clear that the NT makes references to a gift or office of shepherd or shepherding. There are OT passages as well which refer to leaders of Israel as shepherds in both a positive and negative sense. In Jeremiah 3:15 God promises good shepherds to His people. In Ezekiel 34, there is a condemnation of poor shepherds. I think it's reasonably well established that scripture uses the analogy of a shepherd for leaders in some circumstances and that there can be good or bad shepherds. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 24, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 907 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,650 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,833 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2021 On 1/4/2021 at 6:04 PM, Riverwalker said: I have always been of the opinion that Jesus is our good shepherd and pastors, no matter how good and devoted they are , are mere hirelings. Matthew 7 seems to be pretty explicit here. One Flock, One Shepherd Matthew 7:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. No doubt they are given charge over the sheep, to guide and teach them, but does imply ownership? Or am I just reading more into than there might be? I have always felt man has overstepped his bounds / authority any chance he gets. That includes us all. Think not? Just briefly go down the list of things that you consider 'beneath' you... or where you are loathed to return back to the beginning / back to elementary stuff. Or better yet, when's the last time you truly appreciated some huge blessing you received? Anyway.. leadership in the Church, in fact the structure of the Church is not biblical (at least not under the New Covenant): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 24, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 907 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,650 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,833 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2021 This is not to say venture out as priests of God unarmed with no education into the world... most believers remain babes in Christ partly due to the structure of the Church Industrial Complex Worldwide... but mostly due to our own unwillingness to step up for Christ in our own ministries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted January 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.79 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2021 Every church, whether large or small, needs a pastor who will shepherd, lead, feed, and guide the people to spiritual growth and service for the Lord Jesus. But the Pastor needs to be feeding their sheep with good food and not bad food so they will get sick. False teaching is a serious offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1 Posted January 25, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 686 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 221 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/16/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 25, 2021 On 1/4/2021 at 7:04 PM, Riverwalker said: and pastors, no matter how good and devoted they are , are mere hirelings. Here's a verse, says there's just one shepherd. John 10:16, NIV: "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts