Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

[JoeCanada]

51 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

First, your take does not agree with Revelation. That is the first clue that it is "your take" and not really what the scriptures are telling us. Daniel must agree with Revelation. 

So what you imagine is "impossible" is, in fact, truth: the first 5 seals have been opened since the early church days.

Again...this is NOT my take. This is taking what Daniel says and then comparing it with what Revelation says. 

This is scripture interpreting scripture. NONE of this is MY TAKE!

You say that "Daniel must agree with Revelation"??????????????????????????????????/

You are a comedian. 

It's the other way around. Which was written first? Daniel or Revelation? 

When the heavenly council sits for judgment, and this of course includes God on His throne, THEN and only THEN are the books opened. You imagine the book, ie: the 7 sealed scroll (one of the books ) opening as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection. You imagine that the court has been sitting for 2,000 years. Preposterous! Where is/was the judgment??????

The court sits for judgment...... and ONLY for judgment. And that's when the books are opened. And this hasn't occurred..... yet.

You seem to take Revelation as a stand alone book. It isn't. 

[luigi]

On 1/6/2021 at 3:30 PM, JoeCanada said:

Does Daniel show the timing of the opening of the scroll?

Daniel’s Vision of the Throne in Heaven in Dan. 7 is incredible. . It is broken up into three segments (v 9-10, v 13-14, and then an angelic explanation in v 26-27). Interspersed between the segments of these heavenly visions are the events that are occurring on the earth. So, we first are given a view of events on the earth, then we see heaven’s reaction, we view more events on the earth, and again we see heaven’s explanation.

What events do we see on earth:

“The four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea, and four beast were coming up from the sea. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle….and behold, another beast resembling a bear, and they said to it ‘Arise, devour much meat’….After this I kept looking and behold, another one, like a leopard-and dominion was given to it. After this I kept looking in the night visions and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth- it devoured, crushed and trampled down-it had 10 horns. While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn came up among them – this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts”..(Dan 7:2-8)

We see that the vision is chronological by the phrase….”After this I kept looking”

Let’s examine the first segment of Daniel’s heavenly vision, heavens response:

“I kept looking until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat; and his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head, as pure wool: his throne was a flame of fire, and his wheels burning fire. A stream of fire rushed forth before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousands of myriads, attended upon him: the judgment sat, and the books were opened. (Dan. 7:9-10 LXX,)

We see that the focus of the first part of the vision is on a heavenly court being seated  and books (scrolls) being opened.  What does this show? “AFTER the little horn  came up among them”, Daniel keeps looking and sees heaven’s response….”the Ancient of days taking His seat on the throne, in the court room”….and it is only then that the books are opened.

What books?   Does Dan. 7 give us further information about one of scrolls and what results follow after it is opened? It does. Only a few verses later, of the judgment of the court is made known:

“I beheld  (I kept looking) in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of Man, and he came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to him.  And to him was given the dominion, and the honor, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13-14 LXX, emphasis mine)

It is very clear that a transfer of power has occurred, and the kingdom has passed to “the Son of Man.” The passage also indicates that this is the last time that power will transfer. Jesus’s dominion win be everlasting The Angel then replied;

And  the judgment has sat, and they shall remove his (Satan and the Antichrist’s) dominion to abolish it, and to destroy it utterly. And the kingdom the power and the greatness of the kings that are under the whole heaven were given to the saints of the Most High; and his (Jesus’s) kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all powers shall serve and obey him. (Dan. 7:26-27 NASB,)

 

The angel’s explanation makes it clear to Daniel that one focus of the heavenly judgment is on transferring the dominion from Satan and the Antichrist to Jesus and the saints. The opening of the scrolls pictured in Dan 7:10 seem to be the impetus of this transfer of power. In order to further understand Daniel, we need to examine the Revelation account because it gives us far greater detail.

Let’s compare…..Daniel 7:  …..Rev 4-5                           

 

Thrones were set up….. Dan 7:9…

24 thrones with 24 elders….Rev 4:4

 

Ancient of Days took His seat…..Dan 7:9

A throne in heaven and one sitting on the throne….Rev 4:2

 

Hair like wool (Dan 7:9) , Body like beryl  (Dan 10:6)

Hair like wool (Rev 1:14, Body like jasper, sardius (Rev 4:3)

 

A river of fire coming before Him … Dan 7:10

Flashes of lightening from out of the throne…Rev 4:5

 

Thousands upon thousands and myriads upon myriads (Gods attendants) …Dan 7:10

The number of them were myriads upon myriads and thousands upon thousands …Rev 5:11

 

 

The book(s) were opened   ….Dan 7:10

Jesus opens the scroll with 7 seals…Rev 6:1

 

One coming with the clouds of heaven…Dan 7:13

He is coming with the clouds…Rev 1:7

 

Daniels vision and Johns vision of the throne room in heaven are truly one and the same. And this is important because the vision in Daniel gives us the timing of when these events occur.

Look at Dan 7:8-9, which is prior to the vision of the Throne in Heaven…..

“I noticed his horns, and behold, another little horn came up in the midst of them, and before it three of the former horns were rooted out: and, behold, there were eyes as the eyes of a man in this horn, and a mouth speaking great things. I beheld  ( kept looking)until the thrones were set, and the Ancient of days sat. “……….(Dan. 7:8-9  LXX)

From this passage we learn that the Antichrist is active PRIOR to the Throne in heaven scene, where thrones are set, and the Ancient of Days sat. The Antichrist has arisen prior to the judgment taking place. After the first Throne in Heaven scene in Dan 7:9-10, the Antichrist is still active for a time. He is then destroyed along with his beast kingdom after this first scene:

“I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which that horn spoke, until the wild beast was slain and destroyed, and his body given to be burnt with fire…..” (Dan. 7:11 LXX )

This chronological  order of events allows us to know that the visions of the Throne in Heaven in both Daniel and Revelation occur after the antichrist first arises and before he is judged and destroyed.

This is incredibly important because it allows us to chronologically “time stamp” the opening of the 7 seals of Revelation. The 7 sealed Scroll is opened at the end of the first segment of the Throne in Heaven scene..,.. “THE BOOKS WERE OPENED…Dan 7:10.

Here is the bottom line…..

There are many who teach that the 7 Sealed Scroll of Revelation is opened PRIOR to the rise of the Antichrist……………………

SCRIPTURE HAS JUST PROVEN THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!

The seals cannot be opened prior to the court being seated…….

And this does not happen until the Antichrist has arisen!

( a study from the book Revelation Deciphered by Nelson Walters )

While I 100% agree that when the Lord takes His seat and the judgment is awarded to the saints, comes in after the 4 beasts in Daniel 7, I do not concur with a sequential perspective for each of the four beasts, but rather that the four separate beasts who are diverse from each other, represent all the worlds nations depicted as four separate distinct type of socio economic systems. We see these same four separate distinct type socio economic systems represented in the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. In Revelation 13, we also see these four distinct type socio economic systems; however, but who are now no longer depicted separate from one another as they are in Daniel 7 and Revelation 6, but are then all united together as in one world order. The seals opened in Revelation 6 in which the worlds nations appear in chaos, would therefore have to precede when the worlds nations are all joined together as one with the Antichrist in Revelation 13.

Additional confirmation for the seven seals being opened prior to the beast and Antichrist making their appearance is that the seventh seal is opened at the beginning of the seven angels soundings in Revelation 8, and that not until the fifth angels sounding warning in which the bottomless pit is opened, is when the beast shall ascend.

[Charlie744]

56 minutes ago, luigi said:

While I 100% agree that when the Lord takes His seat and the judgment is awarded to the saints, comes in after the 4 beasts in Daniel 7, I do not concur with a sequential perspective for each of the four beasts, but rather that the four separate beasts who are diverse from each other, represent all the worlds nations depicted as four separate distinct type of socio economic systems. We see these same four separate distinct type socio economic systems represented in the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. In Revelation 13, we also see these four distinct type socio economic systems; however, but who are now no longer depicted separate from one another as they are in Daniel 7 and Revelation 6, but are then all united together as in one world order. The seals opened in Revelation 6 in which the worlds nations appear in chaos, would therefore have to precede when the worlds nations are all joined together as one with the Antichrist in Revelation 13.

Additional confirmation for the seven seals being opened prior to the beast and Antichrist making their appearance is that the seventh seal is opened at the beginning of the seven angels soundings in Revelation 8, and that not until the fifth angels sounding warning in which the bottomless pit is opened, is when the beast shall ascend.

Luigi, very nice comments! Let me ask a question...

The first 3 metal in Daniel 2, the first 3 animals in both 7&8 reflect Babylon to the Geek kingdoms. The 4th begins with pagan Rome and then is shown as a beast which can not be identified with any known animal on earth. I believe it represents the last kingdom until His second coming and represents all the many and diverse kingdoms over the past 2,000 years. Hence , the “beast” has been in play since pagan Rome. Today, we are simply seeing what I believe is the “last form” of this beast (or certainly very near what it will become prior to the second coming). It may not be complete, if you will, but we certainly have been experiencing the evils by man, these groups  (that have and will continue to corrupt and war against  fellow man). 

So, if that is accepted, and even if it just prior to its eventual form, where would this be placed in Revelation?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[luigi]

2 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Luigi, very nice comments! Let me ask a question...

The first 3 metal in Daniel 2, the first 3 animals in both 7&8 reflect Babylon to the Geek kingdoms. The 4th begins with pagan Rome and then is shown as a beast which can not be identified with any known animal on earth. I believe it represents the last kingdom until His second coming and represents all the many and diverse kingdoms over the past 2,000 years. Hence , the “beast” has been in play since pagan Rome. Today, we are simply seeing what I believe is the “last form” of this beast (or certainly very near what it will become prior to the second coming). It may not be complete, if you will, but we certainly have been experiencing the evils by man, these groups  (that have and will continue to corrupt and war against  fellow man). 

So, if that is accepted, and even if it just prior to its eventual form, where would this be placed in Revelation?

 Thank you, Charlie 

All I can say is what I see Charlie, and that is that the increasing chaos in the world today is starting to look a lot more like the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. If so, the first four seals in Revelation 6 in which the four beasts are separate from each other would then now in play. This would also mean, the four beasts descriptions in Daniel 7 would now also be in play.

So what group of nations today do you think best corresponds to that of the separate fourth beast with 10 horns in Daniel 7 who utilizes its massive military forces (its great iron teeth), and goes around conquering other nations (as does the first horseman of the apocalypse), to devour/consume the whole earth in Daniel 7:23? 

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, luigi said:

All I can say is what I see Charlie, and that is that the increasing chaos in the world today is starting to look a lot more like the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. If so, the first four seals in Revelation 6 in which the four beasts are separate from each other would then now in play. This would also mean, the four beasts descriptions in Daniel 7 would now also be in play.

So what group of nations today do you think best corresponds to that of the separate fourth beast with 10 horns in Daniel 7 who utilizes its massive military forces (its great iron teeth), and goes around conquering other nations (as does the first horseman of the apocalypse), to devour/consume the whole earth in Daniel 7:23? 

Thank you Luigi! I don’t think there is any specific group of nations that are / should be identified; this “beast” is ALL of what we as mankind represents and have constructed. This is why this “beast” can not be identified (except at its beginning), because it is ALL of us who continue to disobey God and “think” we are able to control, persecute, power grab, etc., our way through life WITHOUT consequences or concern for any god - let alone our Lord and Savior. 

Also, I have yet to finalize my own work on Daniel but am near the last chapter. 

Regarding the 10 horns, which I believe is completely misinterpreted by ALL, does not represent 10 nations or kingdoms that WILL arise.

So let me ask a question:

In Daniel 8, who comes first the little horn or the 10 horns?

The next question might be who exactly is the “little horn”?

The answers to these two questions will tell us when they must have begun and started their “influence or power” against God. I think just about 99. 999% believe these two entities will arise still in the near future which if incorrect, means that they have grossly misinterpreted Revelation... 

Please let me know your thoughts and thanks, Charlie 

[luigi]

55 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Luigi! I don’t think there is any specific group of nations that are / should be identified; this “beast” is ALL of what we as mankind represents and have constructed. This is why this “beast” can not be identified (except at its beginning), because it is ALL of us who continue to disobey God and “think” we are able to control, persecute, power grab, etc., our way through life WITHOUT consequences or concern for any god - let alone our Lord and Savior. 

Also, I have yet to finalize my own work on Daniel but am near the last chapter. 

Regarding the 10 horns, which I believe is completely misinterpreted by ALL, does not represent 10 nations or kingdoms that WILL arise.

So let me ask a question:

In Daniel 8, who comes first the little horn or the 10 horns?

The next question might be who exactly is the “little horn”?

The answers to these two questions will tell us when they must have begun and started their “influence or power” against God. I think just about 99. 999% believe these two entities will arise still in the near future which if incorrect, means that they have grossly misinterpreted Revelation... 

Please let me know your thoughts and thanks, Charlie 

To answer your question, the little horn emerges from one of the beasts 10 horns. This little horn emerges after the hegoat in Daniel 8 attacks and annihilates the nations Media and Persia, which today are Iraq and Iran. After annihilating Iraq and Iran, and becoming strong from this event, the he goat notable horn then secedes into four horns (four national powers0, from one of which we see the little horn rises. This means that prior to the he goats secession, the fourth beasts members were only seven horns. These seven horns are also represented by the seven heads of the beast in Revelation 13. The G-7 is the industrialized worlds economic policy maker.

In regards to your second question about who the little horn is? Follow the criteria about the Antichrist the Lord provides us to get a better idea of what type of individual he is.

He is the beasts mouth who boasts Great things (Daniel 7:8, 20, 25; Revelation 13:5).

He's fat (Daniel 7:20).

He's a narcissist, always magnifying himself (Daniel 8:11, 25, & 11:36).

He's a pathological liar, casting truth to the ground and stomping all over the true illumination Gods angels provide mankind (Daniel 8:10, 12; Revelation 12:4).

[iamlamad]

On 1/9/2021 at 9:08 PM, JoeCanada said:

Again...this is NOT my take. This is taking what Daniel says and then comparing it with what Revelation says. 

This is scripture interpreting scripture. NONE of this is MY TAKE!

You say that "Daniel must agree with Revelation"??????????????????????????????????/

You are a comedian. 

It's the other way around. Which was written first? Daniel or Revelation? 

When the heavenly council sits for judgment, and this of course includes God on His throne, THEN and only THEN are the books opened. You imagine the book, ie: the 7 sealed scroll (one of the books ) opening as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection. You imagine that the court has been sitting for 2,000 years. Preposterous! Where is/was the judgment??????

The court sits for judgment...... and ONLY for judgment. And that's when the books are opened. And this hasn't occurred..... yet.

You seem to take Revelation as a stand alone book. It isn't. 

This is taking what Daniel says and then comparing it with what Revelation says.  This is scripture interpreting scripture. NONE of this is MY TAKE!  Again I must disagree. It is what you THINK Daniel is saying, and comparing it with what you THINK Revelation is saying that causes you to say "impossible." I think what you think is impossible is really truth.  Therefore you must not be understanding the verses in Daniel the way I understand them.

There are many "books" in the bible. When someone tries to determine time by when certain books are opened, when no timing is given, will get into imagination. In Revelation it is very clear that Jesus got that book, with 7 seals, into His hands as soon as He ascended. Some people therefore must imagine that He has been holding that book all this time, still waiting to open the first seal! It is preposterous! No one can find 2000 years in any of those verses, or between any of them. It should be understood that as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book into His hands, He began opening the seals. Since sending out the church was the first seal, it HAD to be done right then. 

¹⁰ A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

¹¹ I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This passage tells us the timing: it has to be AFTER the voice of the Little horn or the Beast of Rev. 13. That means it has to be after the midpoint of the 70th week. Then when he is slain, we know it has to be during Rev. 19. All this is future to us today. 

I think you and I will continue to disagree.

[JoeCanada]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In Revelation it is very clear that Jesus got that book, with 7 seals, into His hands as soon as He ascended.

It may be very clear in your mind only. I've been over this with you before. Your interpretation does not agree with scripture. 

 

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore you must not be understanding the verses in Daniel the way I understand them.

Daniel's vision in Dan 7 is quite clear.

In his vision he sees 4 beasts coming up out of the great sea. The fourth beast is a terrifying beast, having 10 horns. This is obviously in the end times because the 10 horns do not arise until the end of time. Then the little horn comes up among the 10. Then he sees the thrones set up and the Ancient of Days took HIS SEAT. 

Does God always and only sit on His throne....all the time? NO. He sits on His throne for judgment. Rev 20:11 confirms this. And when He sits on His throne for judgment, then and only then are the books opened. You do know that the 7 sealed scroll is one of the books that are opened?????? Yes????

Daniel 7 gives us a timeline. 

The beasts, the 4th beast, then the 10 horns, then the little horn.....THEN judgment sits and the books are opened. 

If you want to say that this understanding is not correct....then it is up to you to prove this otherwise. I'm just following the timeline from scripture.

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

It may be very clear in your mind only. I've been over this with you before. Your interpretation does not agree with scripture. 

 

Daniel's vision in Dan 7 is quite clear.

In his vision he sees 4 beasts coming up out of the great sea. The fourth beast is a terrifying beast, having 10 horns. This is obviously in the end times because the 10 horns do not arise until the end of time. Then the little horn comes up among the 10. Then he sees the thrones set up and the Ancient of Days took HIS SEAT. 

Does God always and only sit on His throne....all the time? NO. He sits on His throne for judgment. Rev 20:11 confirms this. And when He sits on His throne for judgment, then and only then are the books opened. You do know that the 7 sealed scroll is one of the books that are opened?????? Yes????

Daniel 7 gives us a timeline. 

The beasts, the 4th beast, then the 10 horns, then the little horn.....THEN judgment sits and the books are opened. 

If you want to say that this understanding is not correct....then it is up to you to prove this otherwise. I'm just following the timeline from scripture.

 

Joe, I don't want to start and take this post in a new direction but I would like to discuss with you the interpretations MOST COMMONLY FOUND / ACCEPTED in Daniel (which unfortunately I do not follow). Anyway, I think everyone would agree that there are many verses within Daniel that speak to our understanding of Revelation, consequently if we get Daniel wrong, we definitely will get Revelation wrong.  

Now regarding Daniel's prophecies in 7 & 8 there are 3 actors, if you will, that are identified; the beast, the 10 horns and the little horn, and they all arrive on the scene in that order. As mentioned above, I believe almost all contend these 3 actors arrive "on the scene" at the end times and NOT some 2,000 years ago. And if this is correct, then they have a significant impact on our interpretation of Revelation,  If all 3 arrive some 2,000 years ago, then Revelation must be completely re-thought.

1) the beast is the 4th kingdom in Daniel's book and arrives after Greece, meaning it is pagan Rome. This beast will begin after Greece and continue on in many forms until the end times. 

2) the 10 horns that come out of this beast are next and therefore come before the little horn.  So, if the little horn is papal Rome and specifically the papacy and who will also continue to the end times, that would tell us the 10 horns must have also come onto the scene and prior to the little horn,

3) the 10 horns arrive prior to the little horn since he disposes of 3 of the 10 soon after he (papacy / papal Rome) comes to power.

So, before this interpretation continues, and WITHOUT turning to Revelation (which is what everyone has done) to interpret these 3 actors in Daniel, can you / would you mind commenting on the above?  Thanks, Charlie

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

It may be very clear in your mind only. I've been over this with you before. Your interpretation does not agree with scripture. 

 

Daniel's vision in Dan 7 is quite clear.

In his vision he sees 4 beasts coming up out of the great sea. The fourth beast is a terrifying beast, having 10 horns. This is obviously in the end times because the 10 horns do not arise until the end of time. Then the little horn comes up among the 10. Then he sees the thrones set up and the Ancient of Days took HIS SEAT. 

Does God always and only sit on His throne....all the time? NO. He sits on His throne for judgment. Rev 20:11 confirms this. And when He sits on His throne for judgment, then and only then are the books opened. You do know that the 7 sealed scroll is one of the books that are opened?????? Yes????

Daniel 7 gives us a timeline. 

The beasts, the 4th beast, then the 10 horns, then the little horn.....THEN judgment sits and the books are opened. 

If you want to say that this understanding is not correct....then it is up to you to prove this otherwise. I'm just following the timeline from scripture.

 

Rev 4:² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[Jesus not seen in the throne room of heaven - in HIS book! This is telling us something. John is giving us timing information: He was not seen in heaven because the time shown is while He was on earth.]]

Rev 5³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [Here Jesus not worthy to take the book and open it. Again John is telling us something: Jesus has not yet risen from the dead to become worthy at this time in this part of John's vision: first, not seen in heaven (on earth) and now we know it was before He rose from the dead.]

 

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. [Now we see that Jesus has just risen from the dead to become worthy to take the book and open the seals: He conquered death, hell and the grave.]

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.  [Next John sees Jesus suddenly appear back in the throne room He left 32 years previous. He has just ascended back home.]

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.  [Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended back to the throne room.]
Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals... [As soon as Jesus got the book into His hands (being worthy to open them) He began to open the seals: circa 32 AD.] 

 My friend, this is straight out of the book.  Of course people can make these verses say most anything if they are willing to pull them from their chapter 4 & 5 context.  How then can you say This does not agree? It comes straight FROM the scriptures.

Then the little horn comes up among the 10. Then he sees the thrones set up and the Ancient of Days took HIS SEAT.  Let's read:

⁸ I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

⁹ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

¹⁰ A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

¹¹ I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

¹³ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

What part of this can we easily identify with John's chronology? Notice verse 11: the Beast is alive and speaking (as shown in Rev. 13) and then he was slain and cast into the lake of fire. Where do we read this?

Rev. 19:²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I would say then, that books were opened to judge this beast before He was taken - so sometime in Rev. 19, but not seen by John. 

Question: is this the Father on the throne, or the Son?  It must be the Father, for the Son is seen coming in verse 13. 

 "NO. He sits on His throne for judgment."  I was sure that every time the Father was seen in scripture, He is seated on His throne.  (Isaiah, Ezekiel, Rev. 4.)

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it...  Don't read into this what is not there. It does not say He just sat down to judge. John saw a moment of time and in that time saw the Father sitting. I think every time He was seen, He was seated.

And when He sits on His throne for judgment, then and only then are the books opened. Pure opinion and speculation - that does not fit. Scripture shows us the book with seven seals opened at another time. Don't lump all books into one time-frame.