I dont understand the trinity

[enoob57]

58 minutes ago, F_Ivan said:

Did you read what I said? How am I in error in my OP, im not saying my OP is a perfect explanation, just that I understand Jesus as 100% God, the God of Genesis and same with holy spirit and father, and that yet there is only 1 personal living God. I was arguing against the concept of Son father and spirit being 100% God and "of the same substance of God" like how me and my mother are distinct persons yet me and my mom are 100% "fully human"/same substance, but the term "fully human" is not a living personal being in itself, it's little more than a concept/thing. Hope you understand

Yes and the purpose of my comment is to take all Scripture pertaining to God and search for the introduction of God from that... it is the Word: that is God, Creation event pointing to God, made flesh The Person of Jesus (John 1) that forms correct reason with our minds.... Your questions are answered fully in Genesis-Malchi and Matthew-Revelation as the heart that relies upon The Holy Spirit to rightly divide and may God Speed to your journey!

[F_Ivan]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Yes and the purpose of my comment is to take all Scripture pertaining to God and search for the introduction of God from that... it is the Word: that is God, Creation event pointing to God, made flesh The Person of Jesus (John 1) that forms correct reason with our minds.... Your questions are answered fully in Genesis-Malchi and Matthew-Revelation as the heart that relies upon The Holy Spirit to rightly divide and may God Speed to your journey!

Okay but what about what I said in the OP was erroneous? (I know you mean well)

Edited January 10, 2021 by F_Ivan

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, F_Ivan said:

Okay but what about what I said in the OP was erroneous? (I know you mean well)

I wasn't correcting only directing  
The Word can and will reside in the heart that has New Life and meaning within by The Power of The Holy Spirit... thus at the baptism of Jesus I would have seen The Holy Spirit like as a dove descend upon the Son and at that moment I would have heard from heaven above The Father speak  This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased all the while I would have been looking at The Son of God now in flesh coming up out of the water... Always remembering what God had said about Himselves in the beginning 'Let (US) create... along with the multitude of other verses on this subject  
 

[other one]

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.

[JohnD]

On 1/9/2021 at 11:34 AM, F_Ivan said:

i recently heard that the trinity is three separate persons but with the same divinity/attributes as God? Isn't that basically the same as three equally powerful creator gods? Or isn't that basically reducing God to just being a joint force of son father and spirit but not actually one God? How I understand God is that there is one personal god (not just one "divinity" in the abstract sense) and that Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are 100% God, Jesus is the same God who made Adam, and so is God the father and the holy spirit.  My understanding of the relationship between father son and spirit is basically the same as the concept of omnipresence, God can be both in New York and Los Angeles at the same time and yet only be one God and not two gods. In the same way Jesus on earth prayed to the father while both being 100% God and there only being one personal living God. I believe that some would call this a form of modalism?

Here's what I present as "the old one - two" (an old boxer's expression)...

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Genesis 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

All in the beginning (same time).

Each present (John and 1 John specifically state they are WITH each other).

John 1:14 clearly states that God the Word became Jesus the only begotten of the Father.

John 1:1-2 God the Son (the Word) is with God

1 John 1:1-2 God the Father with God the Son (the Word of life)

Genesis 1:1 God the Spirit is present on scene in the beginning.

Footnote about the Holy Spirit... he is mentioned so little in scripture when you think of it in comparison

to the Son certainly... because the Bible is centered on Jesus (John 5:39 / Luke 24: 27 / John 8:24) and humility of being the Author of the Bible (2 Peter 1:21).

The Bible teaches there is only one God. There are three distinct persons with the same equal divine nature 

who are the one God.

Is there another example of such compound unity / unity of plurality?

How about a family. One family with multiple members within.

This is NOT to say the Godhead is a family. Even the fatherhood of the Father and the sonship of the Son

deals with the First Person (the ultimate Authority) of the Godhead creating the human body that the Second Person

(the Word / sole Creator of all else) of the Godhead would become:

Hebrews 10:5 (AV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This tells you the relationship between Father and Son is not from eternity past but from the moment the Father created the body of the Son.

This is where we enter into the limitations of human speech / understanding in that the identifiers we use like God the Father get in our way. God the First Person of the Godhead [became] the Father only when he created the body of the Son... before that he would best be known as God the Authority. Since all authority is his (many passages most of which Jesus spoke).

And he alone possesses / retains the end from the beginning (at least where the return of Christ to Earth is concerned).

Mark 13:32 (AV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Acts 1:6–7 (AV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

This does not make Jesus any less God in his Spirit because the scriptures state he is equal with the Father.  In Philippians 2:5-11 it also

mentions Christ "emptying himself" in the Greek to become a man while also in the Greek it says "he never ceased to be God."

[BK1110]

There's already been some great replies, so perhaps I'll just tack on a thought; God has revealed much to us in his word, but not everything. If it was something we needed to fully and completely understand in this life, he would have made that possible in his word. I would advise you to not get hung up on the fact that you can't fully comprehend it. We also cannot fully comprehend all of the dimensions that God exists in. And has always existed in, since he is immortal, and exists outside of, and indeed created, the dimension of time.

R.C. Sproul has some good teaching on the subject that you can look up on Youtube. So do keep studying, and pondering, but instead of frustration at not being able to fully grasp it, try to let the end result be furthering your amazement at God's glory. Let it birth worship and awe, rather than frustration, in your heart. And look forward to the day when you are made more capable in eternity of grasping the greatness of God!

[JohnD]

You also mentioned creation.

Clearly Jesus (preincarnate) is the Creator (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2)

Now be amazed:

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

All three did not create all things in the beginning. They were all present (the old one - two John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2).

But only Jesus (preincarnate) created alone / by himself.

Jesus is the Father of creation:

Isaiah 9:6 (AV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This is NOT to say he is God the Father / his Father. It is to say that the creator of some one or some thing is the father of it. In this case creation itself. In the incarnation the First Person of the Godhead created the body that Second Person of the Godhead would become to save humanity...

The only begotten is not only a statement about the unique sonship of Christ to the Heavenly Father... but a statement in scripture that the Father created ONLY the body of the Son. Nothing more.

The Holy Spirit is the Father of truth (John 14:26 / John 15:26) and the Father of scripture (2 Peter 1:21).

So now that you can properly identify the members of the Godhead in scripture you learn that these passages can

accurate read like:

Luke 3:38 (AV)
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (the Word)

Genesis 1:1 (AV)
1 In the beginning God (the Word) created the heaven and the earth.

[JohnD]

Blows our minds that God the Authority / First Person of the Godhead / who we call the Heavenly Father (of Jesus)

is the mystery of scripture. Most are taught Jesus / the Lord was the mystery. His incarnation was the central 

mystery for sure. But he (God the Word aka YHVH / the LORD) is all through scripture.

Why else would he repeat "then they will know I am the LORD?"

My people do not know... me... Kurios Iesous the LORD (YAHWEH) Jesus...

As believers in his only Son, we are children of the Father of Jesus, 

but our sonship to the Father of Jesus is through adoption  (Romans 8:15).

The rest of humanity are children of God the Word by creation

but not children of God the Father of Jesus (by faith alone in Jesus).

[JohnD]

John 8: (AV)
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 5:23 (AV)
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 15:23 (AV)
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

1 John 2:23 (AV)
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

John 8: (AV)
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me;*** of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

*** Waring to the Jews about the antichrist:
John 5:43 (AV)
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

They took up stones to stone him because they did not know his Father or him and they did not believe him.

Their reaction is testimonial to the fact that they knew Jesus was claiming to be God (the Great I AM of Exodus 3):

Exodus 3:11–15 (AV)
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Jesus Christ preincarnate / God the Word.

Praise him ! ! !

Makes sense, when you think of it... that Jesus is the Creator of all things and God of the Old Testament

and why he was the one to become a man and pay the sin debt of mankind (which he did not owe but he took

responsibility for anyway) in his body...  ← because he created them / us.

I used to wonder why him and not the Father or the Spirit. The scriptures reveal this when we allow the Author

of the Bible (the Holy Spirit) to tell us the truth.

2 Peter 1:20-21 / John 14:26 / John 15:26 ← do not say seminary or denominations or doctrines and traditions of man...

[other one]

1 hour ago, BK1110 said:

There's already been some great replies, so perhaps I'll just tack on a thought; God has revealed much to us in his word, but not everything. If it was something we needed to fully and completely understand in this life, he would have made that possible in his word. I would advise you to not get hung up on the fact that you can't fully comprehend it. We also cannot fully comprehend all of the dimensions that God exists in. And has always existed in, since he is immortal, and exists outside of, and indeed created, the dimension of time.

R.C. Sproul has some good teaching on the subject that you can look up on Youtube. So do keep studying, and pondering, but instead of frustration at not being able to fully grasp it, try to let the end result be furthering your amazement at God's glory. Let it birth worship and awe, rather than frustration, in your heart. And look forward to the day when you are made more capable in eternity of grasping the greatness of God!

the main problem is that our understanding of the word God/god today is not what it was understood to be in Biblical times.    There is not capitol letters in Hebrew and the Greek Texts are all capitol letters so technically there is no Biblical difference between God and god.   The word god in Biblical times just refers to a being that exists on higher planes.   Some fallen angels (Watchers) people worshipped as idols and they are referred to as gods....   a person can make a god out of money, cars or any number of things they dedicate themselves to or worship.   I know a couple of people from my younger days that made themselves their god.

So when we say that there is one God, we don't necessarily are saying it is a single being.   In our case it is three that are so closely tied together they think act and plan as one.  And as I said before we can't have any one of them by themselves.    Jesus told us to be one with him as he is one with the Father and if we could do that we could also be one with the Father through him.    And that's why some evangelists teach that we are little gods ourselves (which is about three steps too far for me).