I dont understand the trinity

[F_Ivan]

i recently heard that the trinity is three separate persons but with the same divinity/attributes as God? Isn't that basically the same as three equally powerful creator gods? Or isn't that basically reducing God to just being a joint force of son father and spirit but not actually one God? How I understand God is that there is one personal god (not just one "divinity" in the abstract sense) and that Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are 100% God, Jesus is the same God who made Adam, and so is God the father and the holy spirit.  My understanding of the relationship between father son and spirit is basically the same as the concept of omnipresence, God can be both in New York and Los Angeles at the same time and yet only be one God and not two gods. In the same way Jesus on earth prayed to the father while both being 100% God and there only being one personal living God. I believe that some would call this a form of modalism?

Edited January 9, 2021 by F_Ivan

[missmuffet]

Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

Answer: The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.
The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus’ baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God’s greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

Edited January 9, 2021 by missmuffet

[DeighAnn]

55 minutes ago, F_Ivan said:

i recently heard that the trinity is three separate persons but with the same divinity/attributes as God? Isn't that basically the same as three equally powerful creator gods? Or isn't that basically reducing God to just being a joint force of son father and spirit but not actually one God? How I understand God is that there is one personal god (not just one "divinity" in the abstract sense) and that Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are 100% God, Jesus is the same God who made Adam, and so is God the father and the holy spirit.  My understanding of the relationship between father son and spirit is basically the same as the concept of omnipresence, God can be both in New York and Los Angeles at the same time and yet only be one God and not two gods. In the same way Jesus on earth prayed to the father while both being 100% God and there only being one personal living God. I believe that some would call this a form of modalism?

Haven't read the above yet so sorry if repeating.



This verse helped me more than any others.  (OR maybe it finally got through at this point, IDK for sure)

1 Corinthians 15:27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


Notable mention also. 

What did Christ say?  

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.

Once the lake of fire has rid of us of all evil, there will be no need for a Saviour position anymore. 
Lord of Lords and King of King of Kings, yes, always.  God will remain God, The Lord Jesus His physical form.  And where the two are is the Holy Spirit.   All ONE in the same,  but different 'states' of being???


So for the "3", look at  Him with "positions" He holds not only in place but person, kinda.  
God the Father will never be in the flesh, except as in the person of Christ our Lord, Emmanuel with us.

(Not biblical that I have found anywhere, but I believe that this is because of what Satan would become.  As God made Satan the full pattern, as close a being to God as ever created by Him, yet not even in the realm of being a god, but as good as it gets so to speak, and still betrayed Him,  He had to become a physical being for the purposes of man so as to make sure His ways would always be the way and peoples needs would be covered.  Like I said, not biblical just ponderings at this point.  We shall see). 

Remember God wanted to reign over us but what did the people want?  

1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

1 Samuel 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

1 Samuel 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1 Samuel 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

(And what breaks the heart even MORE is when He came in the flesh, they rejected Him again)

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[enoob57]

All of what we have assembled here, before New Birth,  is of darkness and error even in formation of reason... We have to renew our minds to that of Scripture (completely)
 

Rom 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
KJV
 

Eph 4:21-24

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
KJV
 

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

The Scripture will become your everything as the anchor in the Eternal Exist of God....

[LearningToLetGo]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus’ human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus’ works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for this clear explanation.

[F_Ivan]

3 hours ago, missmuffet said:

 

I feel like the water explanation is decent because the ice is 100% water and so is the vapor and liquid, except that the water can exist as both liquid vapor and ice at the same time would be more accurate I feel

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 

Did you read what I said? How am I in error in my OP, im not saying my OP is a perfect explanation, just that I understand Jesus as 100% God, the God of Genesis and same with holy spirit and father, and that yet there is only 1 personal living God. I was arguing against the concept of Son father and spirit being 100% God and "of the same substance of God" like how me and my mother are distinct persons yet me and my mom are 100% "fully human"/same substance, but the term "fully human" is not a living personal being in itself, it's little more than a concept/thing. Hope you understand

Edited January 9, 2021 by F_Ivan

[johnthebaptist]

4 hours ago, F_Ivan said:

i recently heard that the trinity is three separate persons but with the same divinity/attributes as God? Isn't that basically the same as three equally powerful creator gods? Or isn't that basically reducing God to just being a joint force of son father and spirit but not actually one God? How I understand God is that there is one personal god (not just one "divinity" in the abstract sense) and that Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are 100% God, Jesus is the same God who made Adam, and so is God the father and the holy spirit.  My understanding of the relationship between father son and spirit is basically the same as the concept of omnipresence, God can be both in New York and Los Angeles at the same time and yet only be one God and not two gods. In the same way Jesus on earth prayed to the father while both being 100% God and there only being one personal living God. I believe that some would call this a form of modalism?

People get into huge arguments over what the Trinity is, and I sometimes get raked through the coals for expressing my opinion, though not necessarily on this website. Anyway, her is my understanding: God is simultaneously three people: A Father (God), Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. (The Holy Spirit is how we refer to him when he is communicating directly with us.) It's like a man can be a father, son, husband, and bookkeeper, little league coach, and church usher all at the same time. So God is God, he came down to earth in the body of Jesus Christ, and he talks to us and listens to us (Holy Spirit).
 

[F_Ivan]

5 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

People get into huge arguments over what the Trinity is, and I sometimes get raked through the coals for expressing my opinion, though not necessarily on this website. Anyway, her is my understanding: God is simultaneously three people: A Father (God), Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. (The Holy Spirit is how we refer to him when he is communicating directly with us.) It's like a man can be a father, son, husband, and bookkeeper, little league coach, and church usher all at the same time. So God is God, he came down to earth in the body of Jesus Christ, and he talks to us and listens to us (Holy Spirit).
 

Im definatley not trying to start arguments. I only made this topic because I feel like my understanding of the trinity is what most would call modalism or something, then i saw that people were saying that was a heresy and I started looking up explanations and a lot of people were saying that Son Father and Spirit are the 'same susbtance' and equally God and form one divinity, to me that sounds like saying me and my mother are the 'same substance' ("human") but that term "human" is not a living personal thing it's just a group/concept. I have the same understanding by the way as you (only difference id put is that God the son and God the father can interact with each other, meanwhile F_Ivan the WorthyChristian user and F_Ivan the brother do not interact with each other). 

[johnthebaptist]

4 minutes ago, F_Ivan said:

Im definatley not trying to start arguments. I only made this topic because I feel like my understanding of the trinity is what most would call modalism or something, then i saw that people were saying that was a heresy and I started looking up explanations and a lot of people were saying that Son Father and Spirit are the 'same susbtance' and equally God and form one divinity, to me that sounds like saying me and my mother are the 'same substance' ("human") but that term "human" is not a living personal thing it's just a group/concept. I have the same understanding by the way as you (only difference id put is that God the son and God the father can interact with each other, meanwhile F_Ivan the WorthyChristian user and F_Ivan the brother do not interact with each other). 

Yes, I think I've been called a modalist, also, and they want me to believe that that is a terrible thing, and that I am terribly ignorant or terribly evil. But I think I am right. But I would disagree with you about Jesus and God the Father communicating with each other, since I think they are the same person. For our benefit, I think, Jesus would talk to God, but I only think he did it to show us how to talk to God. 

[Riverwalker]

It should be no surprise to anyone that the complex nature of God is beyond our grasp.  We can accept the idea, even if we do not fully understand it. To think we should be able to parse the full nature of God is a bit.....silly

I have noticed with each "person" the relationship changes

In Old Testament times, it was God above us. (The Father)

In the Gospel Period it was God among us (Jesus)

In New Testament Times it is God within us (the Holy Spirit)

 

but neither that nor  any other attempt to approach the understanding , doesn't even come close to defining the triune nature of God