Genesis 4:7

[Frits]

Gen 4:7 KJV

'If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.'

         * * * * * * *

Is there someone who can say something about:

a) How is it possible that "sin  lieth at the door"?

b) How is it possible that sin has "desire" unto us?

c) If we don't rule over him, will he rule over us?

God bless.
Frits

 

 

 

[johnthebaptist]

3 hours ago, Frits said:

Gen 4:7 KJV

'If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.'

         * * * * * * *

Is there someone who can say something about:

a) How is it possible that "sin  lieth at the door"?

b) How is it possible that sin has "desire" unto us?

c) If we don't rule over him, will he rule over us?

God bless.
Frits

 

 

 

Here is how my Bible puts it: 

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." Genesis 4:7 RSV 

a. I believe "sin lieth at the door" is an expression meaning you are involved with some sin. The Point it that sin is holding you back. 

b. “Desire unto us” would be another expression meaning we are being lured into sin. 

c. “Him” refers to sin, and yes, if we don’t resist temptation, then we are under its power and will experience the consequences.

[Frits]

@johnthebaptist

Hi John,

Here in the Netherlands it's 00.00 night, so I go to sleep. Hope tomorrow I can read it again and answer. Thanks!

God bless

[Frits]

17 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it." Genesis 4:7 RSV 

Hi John,

RSV Bible is a very nice translation, thank you for that.

17 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

a. I believe "sin lieth at the door" is an expression meaning you are involved with some sin. The Point it that sin is holding you back. 

Okay, but do you think sin has a will of its own?  I mean, it sounds like you could say there's a man at the door.  Or rather, there is a man lurking!  May we also think that way about the power of sin?  Is it an identity outside of ourselves initially?  (At the door!)

17 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

b. “Desire unto us” would be another expression meaning we are being lured into sin.

True, but I immediately think when we are enticed, there is also a enticer!  What do you think?

17 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

c. “Him” refers to sin, and yes, if we don’t resist temptation, then we are under its power and will experience the consequences.

Do you mean by "him" that his "power" initially comes to us from the outside?

 

God bless you bro.

[johnthebaptist]

1 hour ago, Frits said:

Hi John,

RSV Bible is a very nice translation, thank you for that.

Okay, but do you think sin has a will of its own?  I mean, it sounds like you could say there's a man at the door.  Or rather, there is a man lurking!  May we also think that way about the power of sin?  Is it an identity outside of ourselves initially?  (At the door!)

True, but I immediately think when we are enticed, there is also a enticer!  What do you think?

Do you mean by "him" that his "power" initially comes to us from the outside?

 

God bless you bro.

I believe there is a tempter - Satan. But sin would be an act, I believe. We need to resist the temptation to engage in that act (or those acts).

[Riverwalker]

Cain was the first born of man.  Corrupt, and dealing with an evil flesh.

Like all of us, (and Abel) He had choices to make, and he chose poorly.  He was well aware that a sacrifice required  blood and he should have offered a lamb (perhaps traded with Abel for one) but instead he took a half step and burned some vegetables

In the light of that context, my answers to your questions are:

a) How is it possible that "sin  lieth at the door"?

We make choices in our life and those choices have consequences, if we choose to serve God, His blessings enter into our life. If we choose to serve ourselves...sin enters that metaphorical door

 

Deuteronomy 30:19

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

 

b) How is it possible that sin has "desire" unto us?

Again we are talking about the desire to sin that is of our flesh... we are tempted by our own flesh...to sin

 

c) If we don't rule over him, will he rule over us?

Better translated as It, but yes if we choose to serve ourselves we will be overcome by sin

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Riverwalker said:

Cain was the first born of man.  Corrupt, and dealing with an evil flesh.

Hi Riverwalker,

It's just a detail I know, but I couldn't read anything about Cain's flesh in Genesis.  What do you mean exactly?

1 hour ago, Riverwalker said:

He was well aware that a sacrifice required  blood and he should have offered a lamb

Yes indeed, Cain also wanted to serve God and he also sacrificed. But from what can we conclude that he knew it was better to sacrifice an animal?  Was Cain interested in it like his brother Abel?  Wouldn't it be an act of imitation?

1 hour ago, Riverwalker said:

...sin enters that metaphorical door

Is that door really metaphorical?  Or does this mean the very real, but to the natural eye invisible door of our spiritual house?  What do you think?

1 hour ago, Riverwalker said:

we are tempted by our own flesh...to sin

Do I understand correctly that you think our own flesh is sinful?  Does our own flesh then lie at that door, or how am I supposed to see it?

 

 

[Riverwalker]

27 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi Riverwalker,

It's just a detail I know, but I couldn't read anything about Cain's flesh in Genesis.  What do you mean exactly?

Yes indeed, Cain also wanted to serve God and he also sacrificed. But from what can we conclude that he knew it was better to sacrifice an animal?  Was Cain interested in it like his brother Abel?  Wouldn't it be an act of imitation?

Is that door really metaphorical?  Or does this mean the very real, but to the natural eye invisible door of our spiritual house?  What do you think?

Do I understand correctly that you think our own flesh is sinful?  Does our own flesh then lie at that door, or how am I supposed to see it?

The corrupt nature of the flesh and our sin nature is discussed many places in the bible.  This corruptness started with the sin of Adam and has carried forward from there.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 

The next few chapters of Romans Deal With the Flesh, Sin and the Law, and salvation from them

 Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

 

Cain was well aware of the need for the blood sacrifice. That also is reflected in the garden, when Adam and Eve made coverings of leaves, but that would not do, so God made them coverings of Animal skin.....shed the blood of Animals to cover man's sin, and that continued until the final sacrifice was made, in the Lamb Of God who takes away the sin of the world . Jesus. So Cain's act was deliberate, and not done from ignorance.  He did not "do well"   Gen 4: 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. 

Genesis 3:

7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

 

As for the door, if their are spiritual doors, I am unware of them

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Frits]

15 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

This corruptness started with the sin of Adam and has carried forward from there.

Hi Riverwalker,

Wow, you provide a lot of material to read. Thank you.
To begin with, I ask this question: You say, "the sin of Adam carried forward".

How am I supposed to imagine that? How did Adam pass on sin?

God bless.

[Justin Adams]

9 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi Riverwalker,

Wow, you provide a lot of material to read. Thank you.
To begin with, I ask this question: You say, "the sin of Adam carried forward".

How am I supposed to imagine that? How did Adam pass on sin?

God bless.

No. We are not liable for Adam's sin, just his legacy of death which Yeshua overcame at the CROSS. The doctrine of 'original sin' is an Augustine and therefore RCC misunderstanding of our scriptures. (Calvinists love that yoke).

Yes, we are born into sinful surroundings and we will eventually sin. However, we are answerable for ONLY our own individual misdeeds and not the sins of our fathers. The scriptures are quite specific here. Read them carefully and understand.