The Genographic Project

[seraph]

(snip)

Here is a useful article with a Christian perspective on common descent.

Fenwar

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But isn't saying we have a "common ancestor" with apes denying that God created humans as humans?

[fenwar]

But isn't saying we have a "common ancestor" with apes denying that God created humans as humans?

I don't see why it should be. For me the Bible makes it apparent that we were created to rule over the other creatures and to have relationship with God; I don't see why this means we cannot be biologically related to the rest of creation and the evidence that we are (such similar DNA, common physical and biological attributes) is enough to convince me without recourse to evolutionary theory or the fossil record.

As Genesis puts it, God formed us "from the dust of the ground" - just as he formed all the other living creatures ("let the earth bring forth"). We are made out of the same stuff as everything else. It is the fact that God created us in his image that sets us apart, but this is a spiritual likeness (surely no-one would suggest that this verse implies that we must have a physical or biological resemblance to God!) It is the fact that he "breathed life into our nostrils" - he gave us his own living spirit - that makes us different.

If anything the fact that we are made of the same stuff as everything else has led me to a deeper appreciation of God's creation and the fact that he originally appointed man to rule over the earth, to "work the garden and take care of it".

Hope that makes sense

Fenwar

[seraph]

But God created animals separate from man. Saying we have a common ancestor says if we had evolved from this common ancestor and apes had evolved from this common ancestor, then the common ancestor would have had to been created first. The Bible does not say that.

• Genesis 1
  20 Then God said, "Let the water swarm with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the large sea-creatures and every living creature that moves and swarms in the water, according to their kinds. [He also created] every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 So God blessed them, "Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters of the seas, and let the birds multiply on the earth." 23 Evening came, and then morning: the fifth day.
  
  24 Then God said, "Let the earth produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that crawl, and the wildlife of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so. 25 So God made the wildlife of the earth according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and creatures that crawl on the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
  
  26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the animals, all the earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth."
  
  27 So God created man in His own image;
  
  He created him in the image of God;
  
  He created them male and female. 28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls on the earth."
  

[fenwar]

But God created animals separate from man. Saying we have a common ancestor says if we had evolved from this common ancestor and apes had evolved from this common ancestor, then the common ancestor would have had to been created first. The Bible does not say that.

That depends on the assumption that Genesis 1 is a literal and exhaustive account of creation and not in any way allegorical, poetic, or summative.

For example, I would say the "common ancestor" is covered by the "let the earth produce living creatures". A single phrase like that can contain a lot, just as "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" encompasses the whole act of creation that the next verses break down into categories. (This is similar to the gaps in the genealogies - where someone is called the "son of" someone else when they are actually their grandson or great-grandson.)

The significance of the days is this categorisation of everything the Israelites see around them - plants, birds, fish and animals, the sun, moon and stars, the earth, and mankind - all of it was created by God. Where other creation myths begin with much of this pre-existent, and where other cultures worshipped the heavenly bodies, the Genesis story methodically tells us that nothing that exists was there before God created the universe. He is the sole creator and the sole deity; he is the only one to whom all of creation must answer.

In this interpretation the "days" themselves are parabolic - a similar kind of methodical repetition to that which Jesus used in his parables (e.g. the servants reporting one by one on their earnings, the three passers by in the good Samaritan, or the different results in the parable of the sower).

Hope that makes sense, I'm not expecting you to agree and I don't want to hijack this thread with "the theistic evolution debate" but just to hopefully show that there aren't as many "problems" with common descent as people might think.

Fenwar

[seraph]

No... not hijacked I didn't really have a particular direction I wanted this to go... I just found the article interesting and was curious as to what others thought of it and figured it would lead somewhere (Although I was kinda hoping it wouldn't get into a young Earth vs old Earth discussion )

I don't think there could be an exhaustive account for our little brains, lol... I do believe God created the things He said He did and in the order He said He created them. He created the living creatures according to their kind then created man in His image. I do believe there is "adaptation".... Siberian tigers are bigger and fluffier than Bengal tigers... but I do not believe that "something" was created not in God's image and "evolved" into man and into God's image... I do not believe the Bible supports that- even if it was an allegorical or poetic account.