Fragmented Beyond Repair?

[Eadora]

Friends:

I did not know weather to post this article in Controversial Issues or in the

[Guest shiloh357]

There are a lot of Jews who share this view. It is very ideological, but it is short on practical wisdom.

Many Jews were for the reliquishing of the Sinai. They supported the uprooting of the people in the village of Yamit, one of the most beautiful towns that has ever existed in Israel, and they razed it destroyed the village and all that had been built and handed it over to the Egyptians. Menachem Begin did this because the Jewish people just wanted to have peace. They were so tired of the fighting, and just handed over the Land that they had one fair and square from a war the Egyptians started Yom Kippur. Now, like then, Jews are so desparate for peace, they will do anything to attain it. They have finally been worn down enough (again)

Where did the Jews from Yamit go? They went to Gaza. Now they are having the same thing done to them again. Israel has to give, and give and give an give all in the name of "peace" with absolutely no assurance that they will be rewarded with peace. Every time Israel has given, they are repayed with bloodshed. Every time a concession is made, it is seen as a sign of weakening by the terrorists and the terrorism continues unabated. Every time a concession is made, it tells the terrorists, "We are winnning" and they ratchet the violence up another notch. Those of us who are against the disengagement are against it because of the history of the conflict shows that no concession no matter how great will ever bring peace.

Israel will most likely, leave Gaza altogether. They will give over everything they worked for, and for what? Hamas has not disarmed, and has not relinquished its call for Israel's destruction, they have never promised to halt terror. Israel has to make the most insane concessions with absolutely nothing being given from the other side in any indication of mutual goodwill.

ZIONISM is not about occupying the West Bank and Gaza. The continuation of the settlement enterprise is an act of suicide for the Zionist dream. It is not only about demographics. It is perhaps even more so about values, morality and lessons that we, as Jews, should understand better than anyone else.

Zionism is not about occupation, that is true. There is no "occupation" and never has been. Occupation from a military perspective, is the result of one sovereign nation conquering another sovereign nation, and usurping that nation's sovereignty. The West Bank and Gaza were not sovereign nations, and Israel did not take them from the Palestinians. Israel did not go to war against the Palestinians in 1967. Israel was attacked in 1967 from those regions by Jordan and Egypt. As is in all legitimate military operations, Israel is providing a buffer against further attacks upon itself from those regions. That is not the same as an "occupation." It was the Arabs who made Israel's presence in the territories necessary.

Zionism was not about conflict with our neighbors.

True, it is the Arabs who made that an issue.

Real Zionism accepted the reality that non-Jews would always live within our midst. This was expressed with both eloquence and finesse in Israel's Declaration of Independence. That Declaration has always served, for me, as a kind of statement of intent and of the values upon which this state and this society rests, or should rest.

Their ideology says "Jews don't expel Jews," implying that Jews may expel non-Jews. They believe they can subjugate the Palestinians and that the Palestinians will thank them for providing them with bread and water. Their sense of superiority disgusts me and raises questions about how we can live together.

The problem with this nonsense is that no one is trying expel the Palestinians. Israel bends over backwards to help them. They provide welfar, social security, free medical care, (even to the terrorists who survive), they have built hospitals, universities, and even provided a modern sewage system. Israel has done EVERYTHING that a nation that wanted to expel another people would not have done. Of course this just gets ignored, and Israel NEVER gets the credit for the ways it has tried to help the Arabs. Israel has more than lived up to it's stated desire in the Declaration of Independance to live in peace with the surrounding Arab nations. Every war they fought was in self-defense of Israel.

All we hear about is the inane, nasal whining about "fundamental Zionist policies." The desire has always been for Jewish and Arab villiages to live side by side in peace. Israel has TRIED in vain to give the Palestinians a state three times in the 20th century, and they were rejected. All that Israel has been asking for now, is that the shelling of Israeli villiages cease. There may be some settlers that have a desire to see the Arabs in Gaza thrown out. Given what the terrorists have put them through, I would not be surprised.

If the terrorists would halt their terrorism, the Jews would go back to their homes, and their farms and milk cows, graft roses, and pick oranges. They would simply mind their own business. The Arabs can have their mosques and do their own thing, and the Jews can go to shul and do their thing. But that is not good enough for the terrorists, or the Arab governments that support them. They call for nothing less than the entire annihilation of Israel, and they are trying to convince the liberal West to give them what they could not take from Israel via five wars of annhilation and 57 + years of wholesale slaughter on Jewish streets.

[other one]

You simply can not live in the same house with someone who wants you dead and gone. you can't live next to a person who is determined to kill you or drive you out of your house and out of the neighborhood.

The only way that Jews will ever have peace is for the Lord to return......

Maybe that is what George Bush is doing..... trying to force God to come back and fight for Israel...... Other than being a great illuminated one it is the only thing that makes sense.... except maybe being very stupid.

[nebula]

Maybe that is what George Bush is doing.....  trying to force God to come back and fight for Israel......