WHERE DID ELIJAH AND ENOCH GO...

[sail2awe]

Firstly, flesh and bone cannot enter heaven, which is a law which mutes the entire question, but leaves us without understanding.

About Greek, and should we need any of it? It is ok to question, so this isn't in defense of my using Greek, but purposed responce due to the fact the Bible wasn't written using websters, it wasn't even written using English, it was written in the common language of the day and later translated and transliterated, so, check this out <hoping to change your view> Fact, until recently we did not know the meaning of the word "substance'' meant here: Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Come to find out by archeological digs, it is a legal term, it is the legal deed, so we must look up some words, and some of us search out all words we have time for, sooooo, for example:

There is no word 'with' in the Greek, but we read people are with each other all day long, and further people are to be with Chirst. What words are they translating from then? Does it matter?

Basically there are two primary words used of being with Christ/w/variants such as en, ex, &c. Prepositions they are called:

One is the word meta,

Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

which is to be understood as being among, or near Christ, taking the next logical step:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Now this is the word 'sun' meaning an closeness which makes complete and of necessity that both parties being required for this completeness. Here is the Strong's:

G4862

σύν

sun

soon

A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.

At the end of Eph1 we read of, the church which is His body, the fulness that filleth all in all. See the practical aspect of unity there, the word 'with' <sun> isn't present, but the result of being with <sun> is made known.

Realizing this, that even the smallest of words are pure words of God and holy, they are not haphazardly shrewn about, but there is an exactness poured forth for our learning. Another example would be a figure of speech, and all figures mean more than what the words themselves state. This being so, when we say ...both sides of their mouth, we understand what we are saying, but we really need to know when figures are being employeed in the Hebrew <Hebraism> or the Greek <idiom> so we can have the understanding which God is putting forth.

Enoch, my point is, that by using only websters, we missed out on what several passages are actually conveying, and in Jude, the Greek makes it clear Enoch was a prophet that spoke of that which had been, and that which shall be, and both of these were the same, as Ecc points out to us.

Now, when the HS uses words, we should endeavor, IMO, to know what is actually said. For example, the word perfect, Biblically, does not mean to get better and better till less and less mistakes are made. It is written, Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Well, how are you going to do that? Sound impossible command in our English, but when we look at the Greek, the word for perfect is the word teleios. Notice the 'tel'. Now we have several words handed down from Greek with this prefix, telescope, television, telephone, and each of these carries the same meaning as the word perfect, which is to obtain something from a long way off, a signal, a message, a conversation.

Biblically, to be perfect, or to go on unto perfection Heb6.1, is to reach the goal which is a long way off. That word goal, well, it is the word last, I am the first and the last.

Lets look at another 'sun' word, one Christ uses, one which also has the word perfect in it, or tel:

The whole period covered by "the day of the Lord" is called the final meeting of the ages, or the (...) (sunteleia); but, the crisis in which it culminates is called the (...) (telos), the end of the age.

Both are rendered "end" in the New Testament, but the use of these two words must be carefully distinguished.

Sunteleia denotes a finishing or ending together, or in conjunction with other things. Consummation is perhaps the best English rendering. It implies that several things meet together, and reach their end during the same period; whereas telos is the point of time at the end of that period For example, in Matt. xxiv. 3 the disciples ask, "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the sunteleia of the age."

In His answer to this question the Lord speaks of the whole period, and covers the whole of the sunteleia. But three times He mentions the telos to say that "the telos is not yet" (verse 6); to give a promise to him "that shall endure unto the telos" (verse 13); to mark the crisis in verse 14, which comes immediately after the close of the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." "Then shall the telos come." The sign of the telos is the setting up of "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet." Thus the telos, and he who endures to this, the same shall be saved, and will be among the overcomers specially referred to in these seven Epistles; to whom these promises are made, and to whom they peculiarly refer.

the word verily verily, it is the same word amen, and truly, or truth. so Greek isn't a bad thing, but in fact, I like this example:

When words are translated from one language to another, there is a breaking down, in a sense, of the meaning and usage. A word rarely, if ever, becomes clearer, but becomes less exact when translated. Greek is a most mathematically exact language. There are 24 different words for the word

Edited August 8, 2005 by sail2awe

[halifaxchristian]

Anyone else got anything to say on the matter? Did enoch get raptured? Did elijah go to the 3rd heaven? What happened to them and why??? Sail2awe, any comments concerning elijah?

God bless.

[sail2awe]

Any comments that I, or any man may have are valueless, the Scripture is plain, flesh and bone cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. We certainly do not possess a complete account of all God's purposes.

This being said, it can be noted that Scripture reveals angelic, as well as various means in which the invisible Lord had made Himself known unto Israel. We read of Him taking the form of a dark cloud, a whirlwind, fire, &c, so I can regulate the synopsis based upon this and believe that Elisha was permitted to see the spirit of Elijah return unto God who gave it. Perhaps God even took the body, buried it or whatever, we are not told and we must be satisfied that there is a more important message then for our learning. We must remain loyal to that which is written being our greatest need by the God who knows the end from the beginning. Let us not attempt to force back the roll beyond the appointed limits.

Let us be content to say of some things that we do not know, because God has not told us. We shall be more pleasing to Him by so doing, than if we take the responsibility upon ourselves of completing the revelation which He has purposely left unfinishedRemember, this one desired to have what Elijah had, but to use for own gain, which the Lord made a mockery of, giving double portion of that which is good, thereby confounding that great spiritual foe who of we read, an enemy hath done this.

It is because of the word of God, that flesh and bone cannot enter, I provided the word study and how the words were used Biblically, albeit but brief.

Edited August 9, 2005 by sail2awe

[halifaxchristian]

Sail...I realize that flesh and bone cannot enter heaven...however, maybe elijah's body was transformed into a heavenly one during the rapture...perhaps a foreshadowing or prophetic occurance of sorts???

God bless.

[sail2awe]

Hello halifaxchristian,

As for me, I am pretty much a stickler for God's word being Pure, Holy and purposed, however the Lord did not remove the personality of the writers who were inspired to write this message.

We find then, that the spirit returns to God who gave it in Ecc12.7.

To go beyond the roll which was given I cannot do. I can however, point to a verse which sheds light to which the overal subject might bear. Here, John speaks to an angel:

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

I am thy fellow servant

<I am> of thy brethren

<I> have the testimony of Jesus

This extrodinary statement declares that this angel is a servant,

is of the tribe in which John finds his seed,

and further that this angel had been a prophet.

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

A verse of relation:

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Of course the Father is invisible literally, and has no face, this then speaks of Father's truth, of keeping His truth in the forefront of their mind always. We can know this by examining more closely the word 'behold' - 'blepo' = to have the power of seeing, to use the eyes, to look at; used of the act of looking, even though nothing be seen. Hence, to observe accurately and with desire; used of mental vision, and implying more contemplation than 'horao'.

I would add that just because the Bible doesn't continue any such discourse as Elijah's body needing to be buried does not preclude the possiblity that the body did indeed return to dust. It is certain that what is important for us to learn is that which is written, for in this is all truth given.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Edited August 10, 2005 by sail2awe

[RGR]

Of course the Father is invisible literally, and has no face....

Where did that wacked out idea come from?

[sail2awe]

From the Bible:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Edited August 10, 2005 by sail2awe

[RGR]

Sail2awe,

Context, context! Right now, the sun seems pretty invisible!

Anyway, I thought we might look at some verses:

Genesis 32:30 NASB So Jacob named the place Peniel, for {he said,} " I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

Genesis 33:10 NASB Jacob said, "No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably.

Exodus 3:6 NASB He said also, " I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

There are a whole lot more than these but I don't think we need go any further-clearly, God has a face!

[sail2awe]

Being that God cannot contradict Himself, when we do come to such places which declare contradicition, we can be sure a figure of speech is being employeed.

I say this not to lessen the subject, or as a work around as many do, for I realize that figures of speech are used for several reasons. One is to make things more colorful.

Figures of speech are rather scientific, are not guesswork.

in Genesis 32:30 the figure called Metonymy of Adjunct.

Hypocatastasis is the class structure which Metonymy falls under.

Of the Adjunct. When something pertaining to the subject is put for the subject itself (Genesis 28:

22. Job 32:7).

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him <No Figure being used>

The invisible, note the article 'the'.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God <No Figure being used>

Lit., of the God, the invisible.

invisible

aoratos

Thayer Definition:

1) unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible

To suggest that words mean something other than what they themselves declare means that we can make them mean anything we want them too, and I personally, cannot handle the word of God in such a way. The word denomination comes from the word division. But we learn that in God is unity, and not division.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided?

Edited August 10, 2005 by sail2awe

[RGR]

And it's still wacked out doctrine!