BobRyan Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2021 9 hours ago, Sower said: "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12 My understanding has always been, It is not me holding on to God, it's God holding on to me. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30 John 10 is about "someone else" taking them away - it is not about them no longer having the free will to leave if they so choose. "He came to His OWN and His own received Him not" John 1:11 "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" followed by why then this failed result? Isaiah 5:4 "the IF" you persevere statements in Hebrews 3:6,14 could not even exist if perseverance were "a given", or as in your post "not even required". Matt 18 ends with Christ's teaching on "forgiveness revoked". Romans 11 teaching on salvation revoked : "20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Gal 5:1-4 - "you have been severed from Christ, fallen from grace" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2021 34 minutes ago, FrankIeCip said: Yes we can absolutely say they were never saved. Remember we don’t know who is truly saved. We may have an idea but it’s God’s business. We are not Job but we are like him. Whatever comes our way we can handle because He will not give us more than we can handle. God forbid I lose my daughter. That’s not gonna change me. I will be devastated but I cant blame God. She’s my daughter but she belongs to Him. Everything is His. And we do not mourn as others, having no hope. God is sovereign and in control. His will be done. ?? The problem with that idea of retro-deleting present assurance if it turns out that ten years from today - you fall away -- is that you cannot actually have assurance until you see that ten years from today you do not fall away. The "forgiveness revoked" Matt 18 teaching of Christ applies because it is real. The "fallen from grace, severed from Christ" teaching of Paul Gal 5:1-4 applies because it is real. The warnings in Rom 2:4-7, Heb 3:6,14, and Matt 13 stony ground illustration of Christ apply - because the problem is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankIeCip Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 757 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 1,119 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/08/1978 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Galatians is about going back and establishing their own righteousness. Read the chapter, not just the verse. I don’t see what you are referring to in Matthew 18. But I can say this. I hope you find peace somehow believing you can fall away. I’ve been there. Believe me. And what is the cut off? One sin? Two? 10? You are not taking the whole of scripture into account. Like I said read Galatians again please. I’m sorry I’m driving so I’ll have to check in later. You know you can believe what you like. It couldn’t have been stated more clearly by others and myself. As I said before I’m not gonna go back and forth with this. Again I hope you find peace. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,191 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Cherry picking verses out of context enables anyone to make the Bible say anything... do the work ! Contextualize!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,251 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,858 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2021 Just now, FrankIeCip said: Galatians is about going back and establishing their own righteousness. Read the chapter, not just the verse. I don’t see what you are referring to in Matthew 18. But I can say this. I hope you find peace somehow believing you can fall away. I’ve been there. Believe me. And what is the cut off? One sin? Two? 10? You are not taking the whole of scripture into account. Like I said read Galatians again please. I’m sorry I’m driving so I’ll have to check in later. You know you can believe what you like. It couldn’t have been stated more clearly by others and myself. As I said before I’m not gonna go back and forth with this. Again I hope you find peace. ?? This is and always has been an endless unfruitful discussion. Whereas some rest upon their ability/righteousness to hold on to God, I rest upon God's righteousness and ability to hold on to me. When I stand before Him, it will be because of what He did. Not I but Christ. I only believed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 266 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/12/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 4, 2021 1 hour ago, FrankIeCip said: Galatians is about going back and establishing their own righteousness. Read the chapter, not just the verse. Regardless of the reason one is said to "fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the point in respect to OSAS - is that instead of being impossible - that "severed from Christ" state is very much possible. One who was under Grace and joined to Christ - can then be "fallen from Grace" and "severed from Christ". Your argument would only work if you were claiming "OSAS is the case except for those saved saints joined to Christ, and under grace who at some point turn to their own works as their gospel and then at that point they lose their salvation". Somehow I get the impression that - that is not your point yet you post as if it is. I find that curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankIeCip Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 757 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 1,119 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/08/1978 Share Posted May 4, 2021 You’re not understanding the difference between true believers and professing believers. You are assuming everyone you mentioned is regenerate. They’re not. Never were. There’s no exceptions to OSAS. Many people think they are saved and aren’t. Like I said, God’s business. Anyone can appear to be saved or righteous. And to address your point please search common (universal) grace and special or salvific grace. I’m sorry I don’t have the time to get into it right now. Search it. You should find something about that. And I am not going to respond any further so again I pray you find peace. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankIeCip Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 757 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 1,119 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/08/1978 Share Posted May 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Sower said: This is and always has been an endless unfruitful discussion. Amen ?? Not always unfruitful though. We have no idea what can happen in anyone’s life. Maybe God uses our post. Maybe not. Only He can open eyes. We can’t. But yes I got you. Thank you bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankIeCip Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 757 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 1,119 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/08/1978 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Hi Bob. Just google common grace vs special grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted May 4, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.54 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted May 4, 2021 The answer to the question is wrapped up primarily with an understanding of what happened in Christ's death, resurrection and ascension and the elects inclusion in those three real historical events. It is remarkably simply and wonderful. You died. You rose with a New Life You ascended in Christ to heaven and that is where you reside God the Father placed you 'In Christ' and what happened to Him also happened to you. You had zero power to place you there and you have zero power to remove yourself. Not even God can do that. Why? Because He is Faithful to Himself. Consider this. God IS Faithful to Himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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