Women forced to keep silence in Church

[Waggles]

37 minutes ago, Paul James said:

I am totally convinced that those churches that prohibit women speaking and ministering in church are totally wrong, and have taken a non-Biblical stance through verses re-inserted out of context and edited verses to make it appear that Paul taught it when he did nothing of the sort.

I am a member of a Methodist/Presbyterian Union church and three of our visiting ministers are women, and they are well qualified and respected among the cluster of Union churches in our region.

Ephesians 5:22  Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 
23  For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. 
24  Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 
25  Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 

1Cor 11:3  But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Col 3:18  Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 
19  Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 

1Tim 2:11  Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 
12  I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 
13  For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 

1Peter 3:1  Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,

1Peter 3:5  For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 
6  as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. 

1Tim 3:2  Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1Tim 3:12  Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

[Paul James]

34 minutes ago, Starise said:

Thank you for giving some background @Paul James. My comments further on it would likely seem very biased to you and maybe they are.  It seems in churches where the Pauline view is held things work well. Nothing ever appeared to be imbalanced in any way.

In the end, it's probably one of those points of contention that will never be settled unless those in favor of can substantiate beyond one or two sources. We would have to go back to those Greek texts and compare. The Bible says to let the older women urge the younger women and to teach what is good. That word teach coming from the Greek would be helpful. Titus 2:3-5

3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

When selecting elders women are not mentioned here-

Appointing Elders Who Love What Is Good

5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint[a] elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Rebuking Those Who Fail to Do Good

10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[c] 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. 

 

My wife won't drive our car on the urban motorway.  She says that she prefers that I drive.  Her reason is, "Why bark if I have a dog to bark for me?"

In this context, as far as scholarly work in theology and divinity is concerned, I don't have to re-invent the wheel by doing my own scholarly thesis when other very capable scholars have written excellent Mastorate and Doctoral theses on the same topics.   They are the ones who have done the years of research which has been approved by their professors, who mainly are the foremost authorities, otherwise these professors wouldn't be employed to evaluate the work of those they supervise.

It would be like wanting to learn to fly a Boeing 737 and going to the trouble of writing my own 1000 page instruction manual, when comprehensive manuals have already been written.   In the same way, we have people ignoring the excellent work of godly scholars and authors, and wasting their time going over the same ground as these authors, albeit not as disciplined or accurate as those who have done the required research.  To complete a doctorate thesis on a theological topic, the author has had to have studied very single book and article on the topic without exception, so gaining a total understanding of what he is to write about.  And, he has to choose a premise that has not been approached by any other author.   If he repeats what has already been researched and written, then his thesis is downgraded to a Mastorate thesis, because the topic has already been submitted in thesis or book form by someone else.

I have said all this to give an understanding of what it takes to write a theological thesis - that it is not something scribbled off in a weekend.  My M.A. English Literature thesis took 15 months to complete and nearly killed me, and then I got just a B+ so it wasn't as perfect as it should have been.   For my M.Div I did a 50 page research paper on the Scriptural and historical background, and current practice, with a survey of selected literature in the divine healing ministry.  I got a much getter grade for that one because I made sure that it was well-researched.   So, if someone wanted to know more about the Scriptural, historical and practice in the healing ministry, all they need to do is to read my research paper, and not have to do their own research and write a paper themselves.

It's like when I needed a pile of trash removed from my driveway.   I could have spent money on hiring a trailer, getting someone with a towbar on their car, loaded the trailer myself, driven to the dump, paid the dump fee, and disposed of it.   Instead, I telephoned "The Junk Man" and two guys turned up with a large truck and had the trash removed within 5 minutes, and the cost was less than what I would have spent on doing it myself.   At my age (73) there are many things, like putting a new sheet on iron on my garage roof to replace the one with holes in it, which I could have done myself 20 years ago, but cannot do now, so I got a "roofer" to do it at the cost of $200!   

So, instead of having to "bark" myself, I can get a dog to bark for me, in the form of a well-researched thesis or book on the theological topic I need to acquaint myself with, along with all the Scripture references that support it.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Paul James

[Paul James]

3 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Ephesians 5:22  Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 
23  For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. 
24  Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 
25  Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 

1Cor 11:3  But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Col 3:18  Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 
19  Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 

1Tim 2:11  Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 
12  I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 
13  For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 

1Peter 3:1  Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,

1Peter 3:5  For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 
6  as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. 

1Tim 3:2  Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

1Tim 3:12  Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

In the light of these Scriptural references you have quoted, would you consider Aimee Semple MacPherson and Kathryn Khulman false preachers, even though thousands were saved and healed through their ministries?

[Waggles]

sorry do not know them

Did they preach the full gospel of salvation or were they denominational preachers?

[Paul James]

2 minutes ago, Waggles said:

sorry do not know them

Did they preach the full gospel of salvation or were they denominational preachers?

Aimee Semple MacPherson was a very well-known preacher of the gospel in the first half of the 20th Century in the United States.  Thousands of souls were saved through her ministry.  The Four Square Pentecostal church was founded by her.

Kathryn Khulman was another gospel preacher whose ministry was in the middle of the 20th Century.  She was a gospel preacher, but as well as thousands being saved, multitudes were healed during her services while sitting in their seats.  She never had a healing line.  She learned of the healings when people came up and testified.  Every disease and disability you can think of were healed.  People were even healed while on their way to the services.   She wrote a number of books describing her ministry.   In most cases, these healings were documented and verified by medical authorities as being totally genuine.  Often the people healed were those with chronic or terminal conditions where they were given up by their doctors and sent home to die.

You can go to Youtube and view the "God's Generals" series by Roberts Liardon.  He gives a good account of these women ministries.   My view of how the Holy Spirit has supported and worked with these ministries shows me that the apparent prohibition of women speaking in church is to what it appears to be where the verses are put as 34 and 35.  But if these verses were originally set after verse 40, then they would make better sense and the supernatural Holy Spirit involvement in these female ministries would not be seen to contradict Scripture.

[Frits]

I think the supposed silence of the women in the congregation has another reason.
Woman had a particularly subordinate position in traditional Jewish thinking!
This does not agree with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus, because Paul teaches in the Gal. letter that in Christ there is 'neither man nor woman'.

In his letter Paul deals with many questions and quests in the church;  from immorality (C5) to litigation (C6), and from marriage (C7) to the eating of sacrificial meat. (C8)

But that 1Cor.14:34 still prescribes this according to the law, is because Paul does not point to the law of God, but to another law!  Which law? In his answer he refers to the Jewish Talmud, witch says that the woman must be silent!

Thus there had been "false apostles" (2Cor.11:4,13) of the Jewish direction, who wanted to continue the customs of the synagogue in the congregation of the Lord Jesus!

After all, the Talmud teaches:
"It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men."

These Jewish teachings are at odds with the Gospel taught by Paul.
It is not without reason that he warns against Jewish commandments! (Tit.1:14)
In verse 36 he now comes up with serious rhetorical questions!

1Co 14:36 KJV What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

With these words he rebukes the Jewish judging men in God's churches about women. They are not allowed to put the old Jewish cloth on the new  'garment' of born-again woman in Christ Jesus.

 

God bless.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Frits

[Arrabon]

1 hour ago, Uber Genius said:

Both are amazingly unclear and in direct contradiction to clearer references in the Epistles by Paul.

@Uber Genius What an arrogant screen name!

They are only unclear meanings and unclear contradictions to the unschooled and those that miss-understand Gods word as a complete thought, with unity and Harmony, with a complete purpose, who constantly re-asses the milk of the word and never get into the meat of God's word and get past the basics of Gods word as this is.

 

This topic has been discussed "Ad-nausium" for centuries, CENTURIES, and your still here discussing the basics and still can't figure it out. 

You need to move on to a different topic, or find a different teacher for Christianity 101.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Arrabon

[Paul James]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:31 AM, anynmsfmly said:

Greek ? As in, Greek Orthodox ? Are you referring to the Greek Orthodox church ? If you are, They have at least 10 opposing views from the RCC, And I can't find the short list anymore. Can't find it in search.

In the early church, there were several regions - Jerusalem up to AD70, Antioch, Carthage, Rome, and Byzantium.  This was before the Great Schism of 1054 where the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Constantinople excommunicated each other.

Each had their own copies of the Greek manuscripts.  It was the manuscripts used by the Latin churches that were edited, and the first church father that taught the silence of women in churches was Tertullian in the late Second Century.  No other Apostolic or church father previous to him taught it at all.  The Eastern churches used manuscripts that were not edited but basically kept to the original.   This is why some of the manuscripts are worded slightly different to others.   It is significant that it is the manuscripts used by the Latin churches that became the foundation for Jerome's Latin Vulgate, which formed the basis of RCC theology, and was influential in the formation of the KJV.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Paul James

[Frits]

32 minutes ago, Paul James said:

and was influential in the formation of the KJV.

Bro Paul,

My countryman Erasmus in 1516 has retranslated Jerome's Latin translation into a new, pure Latin translation of the New Testament, to come to: the Textus Receptus. (Greek)
 The TR became the basis of KJV (English), the LV (German) and the SV (Dutch).

Edited February 5, 2021 by Frits

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

Out of the 25,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, some have the reference at 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and others have it after verse 40, which makes better sense, because it is linked to decency and order in the church rather than a blanket prohibition on women speaking in church.   When the reference is after verse 40, it then appears that when prophecies are given, married women should not be loudly questioning them, but keeping silence and then asking their husbands to explain the prophecies at home.

Textual criticism, along with Redaction and Historical criticism are merely tools for better understanding of the Scriptures, along with exegesis and hermeneutics.  The word "criticism" in this context is not the "put down" kind that holier than thou pelicans in the church do to those who don't come up to their unrealistic standards.   It is more of examination and confirmation that the text that we are depending on is authentic and free from meddling by those with their own theological or cultural bias.

It is like using the internet.  The internet itself is amoral.  It can be used for good, or evil.  One person can use it to inform and bless others as led by the Holy Spirit, and another can use it to view porn.   In the same way, a person can drive a motor vehicle to do the weekly shopping, or be a getaway driver in an armed robbery.

I'm not afraid of textual criticism.  The only ones who should be afraid of it are those whose sacred cow doctrinal positions might be threatened by the truth in the same way that a person with cancer symptoms afraid to go to the doctor in case the doctor tells him that he actually has cancer. 

I've already shown you that the Majority Text (i.e. the Byzantine, Eastern text form) has  1 Corinthians 14:34-35 just as it is in the Critical Text and the Received Text; in fact, the text used by the Eastern Orthodox (the Patriarchal Text) is extremely similar (although not identical) to the Received Texts used by the Geneva Bible, Authorised Version, NKJV, etc.

Here is the Eastern Orthodox New Testament, for the verses in question.

1 Cor. 14: 33b-35 (EONT)

As is done in all the Churches of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the Churches, for it has not been permitted for them to speak as they are to be under authority, as the law also says. 35 If they desire to learn about something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is not fitting that a woman should speak in the Church.

 

I know what "criticism" means, in "textual criticism".

Why did you not answer my question?  Here it is again, in case you feel able to answer it now.

Let me ask you something here, because I have a suspicion: do you believe that God has preserved his word; or, do you believe that, in textual criticism, the Bible should be treated like any secular book of antiquity?

Edited February 5, 2021 by David1701