No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[DeighAnn]

LET'S SEE if I am following A couple of THE TEACHINGS FOUND HERE.  

EITHER WHAT IS WRITTEN IS OUR TRUTH
OR
'WHAT IT REALLY MEANS' IS OUR TRUTH.  

Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 
WILL NEVER BE WHAT GOD SAID


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

does this 'REALLY MEAN'

I DO NOT GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU,
I WILL NOT COME AGAIN AND
WILL NOT RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF AND 
YOU WILL NOT BE WHERE I AM ALSO?
Because REALLY,  you REMAIN DEAD UNTIL I RETURN TO THE EARTH FOR A RESURRECTION OF ALL ON THE LAST DAY

That is what everyone agrees with to be the truth?

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

AGAIN, what is really meant is
I DO NOT GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU,
I WILL NOT COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF AND
WHERE I AM YOU WILL NOT BE ALSO, correct?

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
What would be the point, if are not GOING anyhow?

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Waiting for the 'return' on the last day means no need to know the way

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 
if all waiting until the father comes, then no man is 'coming' to the Father, correct?  
 

Hopefully,  I got ALL THAT wrong and that isn't what anyone is REALLY teaching.  

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
(ANYONE WANT TO DENY THIS, AND SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A PRE TRIB RAPTURE?)
 

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

WHERE IS CHRIST

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (the flesh body dissolving) in Jesus (washed clean through the LAMB SACRIFICE) will God bring with him.  

Is the 'bring with' part NOT REALLY written? 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

PSYCH?  no building of GOD in the eternal heavens? 

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

SO, we don't REALLY have a 'celestial body'?  GOD didn't REALLY  give 'to every seed his own body'?  

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

but NOT really present with the Lord, but DEAD, in the earth, awaiting a return? 
NO SAINTS IN HEAVEN TILL THE RAPTURE, that is what all who agree are saying right? 

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2 Corinthians 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen

(Does ANYONE SEE A 'LATER' resurrection of the the dead?) 

 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

WHEN CHRIST RISES THE DEAD HAVE TO RISE ALSO.  

EITHER THE DEAD RISE NOW OR THE DEAD RISE LATER, CHRIST INCLUDED,
and if we don't believe the NOW,   
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become
the firstfruits of them that slept.
AKA 'AND THE GRAVES OPENED'.  

a watchman sounding a warning  
that
I go prepare a place means just that
That you may be where I am means just that
That there is a body in heaven when the earth one dissolves means just that
that the dead must rise for Christ to rise means just that
that 'bring with' means just that

 

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Thank you for your extensive review and comments.  One point I have is I'm unable to see how "certain meaning of words" in the bible can be interpreted based on the Greek language, considering the bible has been interpreted already 400 or so years ago.  To do this is considered changing the word of God to be interpreted the way a person want it to be, to their liking, and not the way it has already been interpreted by those God entrusted to do so so many hundred years ago.  We are not Greek scholars.  We don't speak the Greek language.  It's my opinion that people doing this is making a grave mistake. 

Shalom, biblelesson.

You're welcome. I try to give everyone to whom I write equal ability to understand from where my thoughts stem. I believe that God has given me an unction to see the Bible in a unique way (that may not be quite so "unique"). 

Living languages, like Modern English, are susceptible to change, and the changes made to the language are ever so slight that a speaker of the language wouldn't even notice the subtle changes. Most of those changes are not in the text or in the grammar but are in the MEANING of the words employed.

Take, for instance, the meaning of the word "gay." Back in the late 70's, I was in a singing group and one of the songs we used had the word "gay" in it, simply meaning "giddy; happy-go-lucky." However, in our tour of the western U.S., it was necessary for us to change the lyrics of the song because of the "new" (at the time) understanding of the meaning of the word "gay," having been twisted toward describing homosexuality.

The latest word under attack by change in meaning within our Christian circles is the word "resurrection." I've also noticed that this is usually found in the lyrics of songs. One such example is in the lyrics of "Resurrection" by Nicol Sponberg:

Quote

 

I’m at a loss for words, there’s nothing to say
I sit in silence wondering what led me to this place
How did my heart become so lifeless and cold
Where did the passion go?

When all my efforts seem like chasing the wind
I’ve used up all my strength and there’s nothing left to give
I’ve lost the feeling and I’m numb to the core
I can’t fake it anymore.

chorus:

Here I am at the end I’m in need of resurrection
Only You can take this empty shell and raise it from the dead
What I’ve lost to the world what seems far beyond redemption
You can take the pieces in Your hand and make me whole again, again

 

While one can see how one could APPLY the word to such a situation, this is NOT what "resurrection" means!

"Resurrection" is defined as ...

Quote

res·ur·rec·tion| ˌrezəˈrekSH(ə)n | noun 

the action or fact of resurrecting or being resurrected: the story of the resurrection of Osiris. 
• (the Resurrection) (in Christian belief) Christ's rising from the dead. 
• (the Resurrection) (in Christian belief) the rising of the dead at the Last Judgment. 
• the revitalization or revival of something: the resurrection of the country under a charismatic leader | resurrections of long-forgotten scandals.

And, to "resurrect" means ...

Quote

res·ur·rect| ˌrezəˈrekt | verb [with object] 

restore (a dead person) to life: he was dead, but he was resurrected. 
• revive the practice, use, or memory of (something); bring new vigor to: the deal collapsed and has yet to be resurrected.

Those of us who understand the IMPORTANCE of this word and the LITERALNESS of Scripture will recognize this as a SOFTENING of the impact this word should have on our understanding of prophecy! It's primary import is the restoration of life to a dead person! Just as the Messiah Yeshua` was TRULY brought back to life by the power of God His Father, so, too, we shall experience the restoration of life to us, even after we're dead and buried and rotted away!

Who has said, for instance, that the "soul" is the "immaterial part of a human being?" Somewhere down through time, someone CHANGED THE MEANING of the word "soul!" I'm just trying to CHANGE IT BACK!

22 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Second, I'm not up to my own opinion on the Word of God.  I can't say what God won't do because it doesn't sound right to me.  I can only list what the Word of God says, and show the scriptures.  If the scriptures don't show us what God is doing, then that's fine.  But I can't say it's not true simply because it doesn't make sense to me.  I'm not God, and I didn't write the Bible.  

Perhaps not, but it's also "not up to us" to allow our understanding of the Word of God to fall by the wayside! When you "list what the Word of God says," are you BEING SURE that what YOU are listing is indeed what the Word of God says? Again, there are NUANCES to the words we use that may have changed down through the years! If you use the KJV, do you KNOW what the words "wot" and "trow" mean? Do you know what "neesings" are? When words go out of use and style and become "archaic," what are you going to do? You might gravitate to a newer translation of the Bible, but how can you be sure that what you're reading is indeed what the authors and the Author intended for you to understand? When one investigates how languages change over time, one could ask the same thing about the King James Version, as well!

22 hours ago, biblelesson said:

I'm  unable to see your view based on the references you have provided.  It does not flow well for me, based on other scripture context I'm familiar with, to where I can understand your conclusions.  

 

Granted. It takes TIME to come to grips with the understanding of the Bible we use, trust, and rely upon. I have absolutely no qualms in believing that God gave us the TOTAL TRUTH in His Word ... IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES AND MANUSCRIPTS. However, it's a challenge to maintain the same understanding of God's Word through all the informational thermodynamics of transmission, whether from language to language or even within the SAME language! God's Word is both inspired and infallible, but unfortunately, we can't say the same thing about the human efforts to transmit that Word into other languages and time periods. All we can do is trust God to preserve what we need to know through those transmissions.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

LET'S SEE if I am following A couple of THE TEACHINGS FOUND HERE.  

EITHER WHAT IS WRITTEN IS OUR TRUTH
OR
'WHAT IT REALLY MEANS' IS OUR TRUTH.  

Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 
WILL NEVER BE WHAT GOD SAID


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

does this 'REALLY MEAN'

I DO NOT GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU,
I WILL NOT COME AGAIN AND
WILL NOT RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF AND 
YOU WILL NOT BE WHERE I AM ALSO?
Because REALLY,  you REMAIN DEAD UNTIL I RETURN TO THE EARTH FOR A RESURRECTION OF ALL ON THE LAST DAY

That is what everyone agrees with to be the truth?

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

AGAIN, what is really meant is
I DO NOT GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU,
I WILL NOT COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF AND
WHERE I AM YOU WILL NOT BE ALSO, correct?

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
What would be the point, if are not GOING anyhow?

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Waiting for the 'return' on the last day means no need to know the way

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 
if all waiting until the father comes, then no man is 'coming' to the Father, correct?  
 

Hopefully,  I got ALL THAT wrong and that isn't what anyone is REALLY teaching.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Oh, my goodness! OF COURSE Yeshua` meant that He was REALLY going to go to prepare a place for us! What you need to understand, though, is that Yeshua` is NOT coming back to take us there! THAT'S the part that is ADDED by those reading that portion of Scripture in John 14! What one must be clear on is that Yeshua` didn't SAY that! What He said was, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am (back on earth again), there ye may be also!" He did NOT say that He was taking us to the place He was preparing!

His POINT in saying this was to allay their fears that they would never see Him again!

YES, we stay in the grave, "sleeping," until He comes and awakens us! What's the harm in that? The Scriptures are REPLETE with promises of resurrection! So what if our bodies decay? Isn't God the CREATOR?! Can't He REMAKE our bodies, even IMPROVING them never to be susceptible to death again?!

 

[Leonardo Von]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

NO SAINTS IN HEAVEN TILL THE RAPTURE, that is what all who agree are saying right? 

Well, I believe that we are aware with Jesus in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

Well, I believe that we are aware with Jesus in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

Shalom, Leonardo Von.

Look at the facts! There's NOTHING in that account (parable?) that says that we are witnessing the dead currently in conversation! To the contrary, we read that Lazarus has a FINGER that may be dipped in water; the rich man has SKIN AND NERVE CELLS that can FEEL THE PAIN of flames; the rich man has a TONGUE; the rich man has EYES! How can any of that be possible or more than an analogy if they aren't resurrected as their bodies?!

The Greek word "hadees," spelled alpha (with rough breathing)-delta-eta-sigma, is NOT the "Hades" of Greek mythology! The word simply means the "UNSEEN!" It's a word that can describe the FUTURE! They weren't witnessing a conversation in "Hell"; they were witnessing a conversation at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT!

Think about it for a moment: Since when does God sentence people to punishment without first having a trial in JUDGMENT?!

[Leonardo Von]

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

There's NOTHING in that account (parable?) that says that we are witnessing the dead currently in conversation! To the contrary, we read that Lazarus has a FINGER that may be dipped in water; the rich man has SKIN AND NERVE CELLS that can FEEL THE PAIN of flames; the rich man has a TONGUE; the rich man has EYES!

These sensations are figurative. After all, our soul have feelings, thoughts and vision too.

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Think about it for a moment: Since when does God sentence people to punishment without first having a trial in JUDGMENT?!

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

By the way: it is a parable, but a fact that happened. After all, at no time it is written in the Holy Scripture that it is a parable.

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

These sensations are figurative. After all, our soul have feelings, thoughts and vision too.

Shalom, Leonardo.

How can I get through to you? A "soul" is an air-breathing being! OF COURSE, our "soul" has feelings, thoughts, and vision! Every living human being that breathes air does!

9 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Convenient, HOWEVER, we also have John 5:

John 5:16-30 (KJV)

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 
24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 
25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

And, we can add to these words,

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

And,

2 Corinthians 5:6-10 (KJV)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The Messiah's judgment is still in the FUTURE because the Messiah hasn't returned, yet! 

Therefore, sentencing is also still in the future! If that wasn't so, then why are we to look forward to the Judgment Seat of the Messiah?

9 hours ago, Leonardo Von said:

By the way: it is a parable, but a fact that happened. After all, at no time it is written in the Holy Scripture that it is a parable.

I think you were saying that this account of the rich man and Lazarus is NOT a parable. I'm okay with that, because Yeshua` was rightly taken to be a prophet of God; so, He could easily share with His disciples (including us) a scene from the future, since He was one with His Father and was shown things by His Father which He then shared with us. That does NOT mean, however, that this was a scene of the PRESENT in some place of the dead! As I said, the contextual clues say otherwise. We are seeing a scene from the FUTURE, AFTER the resurrections of both the rich man and Lazarus.

[DeighAnn]

On 8/5/2021 at 5:53 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Oh, my goodness! OF COURSE Yeshua` meant that He was REALLY going to go to prepare a place for us! What you need to understand, though, is that Yeshua` is NOT coming back to take us there! THAT'S the part that is ADDED by those reading that portion of Scripture in John 14! What one must be clear on is that Yeshua` didn't SAY that! What He said was, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am (back on earth again), there ye may be also!" He did NOT say that He was taking us to the place He was preparing!

His POINT in saying this was to allay their fears that they would never see Him again!

YES, we stay in the grave, "sleeping," until He comes and awakens us! What's the harm in that? The Scriptures are REPLETE with promises of resurrection! So what if our bodies decay? Isn't God the CREATOR?! Can't He REMAKE our bodies, even IMPROVING them never to be susceptible to death again?!

 

Hi Retro,

What YOU need to under stand IS WHAT IS WRITTEN, NOT WHAT 'IS MEANT'.  

I would think at SOME POINT this would become all important.  HOW do we fight FALSE DOCTRINE?  WITH GODS WORDS not with what 'man thinks they mean'.  

LET'S see who added what or better yet WHO TOOK AWAY from what is written. 
 

1  Not let be troubled of you the heart..  You believe in God, also in Me believe

2  In the house of the Father of Me, mansions many there are:  if now not, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

Jesus says I GO.  Jesus is GOING TO HEAVEN.  The Lord and Saviour MAKES NOT ONE MENTION OF HIS RETURN TO EARTH.  JUST HIS GOING TO BE WITH THE FATHER. 

NOW.  IF NOW NOT.  STRANGE WAY TO WRITE SOMETHING.  ALMOST LIKE CORRECTING A 'VIEW' THAT MIGHT JUST SAY 'LATER' SOMEDAY.

He is going.  He is going to prepare a place.  He is going to prepare a place for you.  He is going to prepare a place for you in the house of the Father.  He is going to prepare a place for you in the house of the Father that has many mansions (rooms)

3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, again I am coming and will receive you to Myself that where am I, also you may be

BUT WE can't go UNTIL OUR FLESH DIES.  REMEMBER, OUR SPIRIT IS RETURNING TO WHO GAVE IT, IT WOULD FIT JUST PERFECT FOR THE MESSIAH TO RECEIVE US WOULDN'T IT?  JUST NATURALLY ALONG THE COURSE OF EVENTS??  ISN'T that exactly what is being said here YET AGAIN, a second witness to ECC 12?

Doesn't the 'RECEIVE you to MYSELF' follow MORE ALONG an 'individual' receiving rather than a 'MASS RESURRECTION'?  

HOW can ANYONE be 'sleeping in the earth' AND BE WHERE HE IS?  It all goes back to messing with WHAT IS WRITTEN. 

NOTHING is being spoken of a 'last day'. Nothing is said of the RETURN ON THE LORDS DAY. 

NO, just about JESUS DYING AND GOING TO THE FATHER AND HOW DO WE DO THE SAME.  HOW DO WE KNOW?  AND WITH WHAT BODY ARE WE RAISED? 

4  And to the place I am going, you know the way

WHERE WAS HE GOING?  I COULD GET RID OF EVERYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THIS TELLS US ALL WE NEED TO KNOW.  THE ONLY WAY TO 'GET AROUND' THIS IS WITH MANS EXPLANATIONS because it can't be done with WHAT IS WRITTEN.
 

5  Says to Him Thomas, Lord not we know where You are going;  how can we the way know?

6  Says to him Jesus, I am the way, and the truth, and the life.  NO ONE COMES to the Father if not by ME.  

COMES TO, not coming back to

DID GOD GET THE WORDS WRONG AGAIN??  IS that even possible?? 
How many times do you think GOD USES THE WRONG WORDS?  

and how do you get from here to the 'WHERE I AM' as being on earth??  PLEASE show me a place where we are told this.  


WE KNOW the SPIRIT RETURNS.  WE KNOW THERE IS A HEAVENLY BODY.  WE KNOW EVERY SEED HAS A BODY.  1 PLUS 1 PLUS 1 IS JUST EQUALING 3.  

How could He say 'they would be where He was' if they weren't for over 2000 years, sleeping or not??


 

3614 house

A house, household, home, dwelling, an inhabited edifice, heaven

of the body as the habitation of the soul

the inmates of a house, the family

 

3438  mone
an abiding, an abode, lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion

4198  poreuomai
to go

I travel, journey, go, die  
to transport moving something from one destination to another
to go or depart EMPHASIZING the personal meaning which is attached to reaching the particular destination

2090  hetoimazo
to prepare, make ready
 

CHRIST DIDN'T GO TO HEAVEN TO PREPARE THE EARTH.  He is returning for that.  


AND HE DID SAY HE WAS COMING TO RECEIVE US SO THAT WE COULD BE WHERE HE IS AND HE IS IN HEAVEN.  

AND how nicely it fits with
 

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

And how nice it fits with 

 

Jesus died and rose again,

even so them,  WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM.

and the we which are alive 

shall not prevent them which have died

CAN'T be BROUGHT WITH if you never arrived.


What's the problem with THE LORD AND SAVIOUR NOT being MORE POWERFUL THAN sin and death? 

EVERYTHING.

WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB SLAIN?  WHY HAVE CHRISTS BLOOD BRING IN THE NEW COVENANT?  

WHAT WAS IT THE LAW/OLD COVENANT COULDN'T DO?

WHAT IS DEATH?  IF WE ARE FORGIVEN AND MADE WHITE BY THE BLOOD WHY ARE WE 'DYING' AT ALL?  WASN'T THAT THE POINT? 

  

 

John 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

JOHN 8:51
Truly truly I say to you if anyone My word keeps, death never not shall he see to the age. 
 

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.


 

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

YOU KNOW WHERE HE WENT?  YES, AND I KNOW THE WAY TOO!!!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

BY SIN CAME DEATH, BY JESUS COMES THE REMISSION OF SINS.  NO SIN, NO DEATH BUT OF THE FLESH which doesn't matter cause GOD GAVE US TWO BODIES.  Our flesh eyes see this one, our spiritual eyes see them both. 


 

 

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

to be sure we understand what is being spoken of, right before that was

John 11:8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

John 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; BUT I GO,  that I may awake him out of sleep.

John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

John 11:16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

 

 

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

WHERE WAS JESUS CHRIST GOING?  Is there ANY MENTION OF the return to earth?  ANYWHERE in all of these passages?  NO.  

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

Did PETER understand that 'life' needed to be laid down to follow?   or that NOW was when it was?  

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake?

How many answer this question with every word and excuse known to man EXCEPT for the one word that really matters.   



 

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

 

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


 

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



 

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be THE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN.  

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


I would certainly like to see any and all scripture you have for the opposing side AS LONG AS they are not those concerning WHAT WOULD HAVE taken place had the  KING NOT BEEN rejected.    

Could you use scripture when stating your beliefs because things like

"What you need to understand, though, is that Yeshua` is NOT coming back to take us there! THAT'S the part that is ADDED by those reading that portion of Scripture in John 14!"  BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU SEE THAT AS ADDED BUT if I did have the bk cpt and vs then I would... Any way again thanks D

[biblelesson]

On 8/6/2021 at 12:17 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

Therefore, sentencing is also still in the future! If that wasn't so, then why are we to look forward to the Judgment Seat of the Messiah?

I think you were saying that this account of the rich man and Lazarus is NOT a parable. I'm okay with that, because Yeshua` was rightly taken to be a prophet of God; so, He could easily share with His disciples (including us) a scene from the future, since He was one with His Father and was shown things by His Father which He then shared with us. That does NOT mean, however, that this was a scene of the PRESENT in some place of the dead! As I said, the contextual clues say otherwise. We are seeing a scene from the FUTURE, AFTER the resurrections of both the rich man and Lazarus.

Messiah has already come being foretold in Isaiah, 7:14, "Messiah would be born of a virgin.  Micah 5:2, Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Isaiah 7:14, Messiah would be called Immanuel.  Isaiah 40:3, A messenger will prepare the way (John the Baptist).  Psalm 69:8, Isaiah 53:3, Messiah would be rejected by his own people.  Isaiah 53:5, Messiah will be wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities.." Psalm 78:2, Messiah would speak in parables. Jeremiah 31:15, Children will be massacred at Messiah's birth.  There are many more prophecies foretelling the coming of Messiah, who has already come.  

The Judgment seat is of Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

We are to call our savior Jesus because the angel Gabriel (who stand in the presence of God, Luke 1:19) was sent from God, and gave a message to Mary, Luke 1:31, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in they womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS!  

There are those today who say Messiah has not come yet, denying the fact that He came and was born of a virgin.  These people are waiting for His first coming.  However, we are waiting for Jesus second coming who came as the Messiah the first time.  

Being foretold in the old testament, Messiah has come, and was born of a virgin, and his name is called, JESUS, who is the Christ - Jesus Christ!

I think it's important to note that the old covenant ended at Jesus's death, where the vail was ripped, bringing the new covenant, Hebrews 9:16-17. 

Some may not understand but Apostle Paul points out the problem with the reading of the old testament,  2 Corinthians 3:12-14:

12, "Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech;

13, "And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14, "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament which vail is  don away in Christ."

We have to be able to discern which part of the old testament leads us into the New Testament, and which part does not.  At this time of Christ, there is no mixing of the new and the old testament.  So we must pray for discernment in reading of the old testament.  If we are not sure, we look for what's been moved from the old to the new under the gospel writings.  That's safer because in Christ we are saved by the gospel only: 

Romans 16:25, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ.."

Romans 2:16, "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

2 Timothy 2:6, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."

1 Corinthians 15:1-2, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved..."

2 Thessalonians 2:14, "Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Because the gospel is the power of salvation unto everyone that believeth, Romans 1:16.

So when we are told we must believe on Jesus, we are being told to believe on Jesus Christ's and His Gospel.

The gospel of Christ, 1 Corinthians 15:1, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand..."

Lazarus and the rich man:

Jesus was speaking to His disciples in parables, so when He spoke about Lazarus and the rich man, this was a parable that was among others that Jesus had been speaking about. 

So we have to look at what the bible says.  We are not at liberty to make things up as we go along.  Although we die, and are buried, our souls go to heaven.  Revelation explains this.   There are souls in heaven during the tribulation, before the White Throne Judgment:

Revelation 6:9,"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held;"

 These souls could even talk to God, Revelation 6:10, "And the cried with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy land true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood..."

So these verses alone tells us that our souls go to heaven, although we are buried when we die.

The issue of the rich man and the beggar: What's important to consider is the bible says the beggar was "carried by the angles into Abraham's bosom," Luke 16:22.

So how could this not be true if an angel of God carried the beggar into Abraham's bosom.  The parable is explaining that somewhere after death, angles get involved with the righteous to carry them to a place of safety.  But apparently the wicked is not carried to a place of safety, and they seem to be tormented.  So maybe we don't fully understand the purpose of the White throne Judgment.  Because none of those who are saved, and are with Christ will be judged at the White Throne Judgment.  They will take part in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:6, "Blessed is holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." 

So, if the beggar was in Abraham's bosom, and the rich man could see Father Abraham, and ask Abraham for help, then it stands to reason that it's true that the beggar was in Abraham's bosom. So if the beggar was in Abraham's bosom, where was/is the rich man?  The bible says the rich man was in torment of fire and looked over and saw Abraham and saw Lazarus in his bosom.  

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by biblelesson

[vic66]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:44 AM, R. Hartono said:

Prophet Daniel was promised of his inheritance (heaven) at the end of days, there is no taking of his soul by Jesus at His 3rd day resurrection, as the end of days will begin with the return of Jesus Christ far away in the future unknown to Daniel.

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will RISE first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven), the place where the poor Lazarus is comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (greek : paradeiso)

When Lord Jesus open the scroll circa 90 AD in heaven above (not in paradise) the souls of the saints are still under the earth

Rev. 5:3 ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or UNDER THE EARTH (paradise part of Sheol) could open the scroll.....

Some take conclusion that when Jesus was resurrected He also took the souls of saints from Sheol/Paradise based on this verse :

Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

But captives here means the captivity of sins being broken by the praching of Gospel by Jesus as He confirmed it in Luke 4:18 ....to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES.......

Thats why its followed by "and gave gifts to men" for the preaching of Gospel as God gave gifts to build up His church in  1 Peter 4:10  As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, also 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

The souls descended into paradeiso is no longer in captivity of sin but they have been freed and awaiting the day of the Lord with the sound of Trumpet at the end of days. Paradeiso is the place of comfort and only the souls of good people entered it and are rewarded.

Apostles and angels were only witnessing Jesus raised to heaven, not carrying the resurrected saints from paradise with Him.

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension, they were probably be buried again after being used by God to show His power and the same with prophet Daniel they are now resting until the end of days for the sound of Trumpet to the mighty celebration of the glorious Feast of the Lamb, otherwise they wud see Abraham, Daniel, Joshua, Samuel, Elias etc departed to heaven with Jesus.

Matt 27:52 The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people

1 Thes 4:14 God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him - Paul wrote this long after Jesus ascension as evidence there are no souls yet taken to heaven after Lord Jesus ascension.

Jesus spoke about all souls of saints in paradise whose bodies are still in their graves, they are waiting there n  will listen to His voice when the time is due in the end of days.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

As Paul said it, paradise is not the destination place for captivity but of victory.                             

2 Tim 4:7  I hv fought a good fight, i hv finished the race.....             

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....THIS WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN in blazing fire with his powerful angels.              

This is about the Harvest, there is no individual soul harvested to heaven but the mass harvest taken to heaven at the end of times (1 Thes 4:16)

Matt 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest...........               

 John 14:3 ....I will come again n receive you unto Myself.

Jesus did not take all the OT saints to heaven when He was resurrected. Because Jesus told Mary not to touch her as He has not yet ascended to heaven, howbeit He took all OT saints to heaven ?

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father.

So the saints shall be literally rcvd when Jesus come again to take wise virgins home.