A failed prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar, or is there another explanation?

[Sister]

11 hours ago, BibleReader said:

I appreciate your input.  In verses 5-11 of Isaiah chapter 10, God is using the Assyrian as a rod to express his anger against Israel along with Mount Zion (See verses 1-4 and 20-27).  Does this mean that you believe that God will use Satan to punish Israel and the inhabitants of Mount Zion in the future?  

Hello BibleReader

Yes that's what the scriptures say, and what the prophets have been warning about for thousands of years.  Not just Israel, but all the nations.  All have been serving the King of Babylon, and in the end, he doesn't give anything good but wants to destroy all. 

 Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

  Isaiah 10:21   The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

  Isaiah 10:22   For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

  Isaiah 10:23   For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

  Isaiah 10:24   Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

  Isaiah 10:25   For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

  Isaiah 10:26   And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt.

  Isaiah 10:27   And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

 

The remnant of Jacob are the flesh Jews.  Only a 'remnant' will return (to Zion during the Millennium)  Those who are spared, and those who have died will come back from the grave to live in the 'flesh'...from all generations.

Zion is God's holy kingdom on 'earth'.  Whoever follows in Christ's steps are the true children of Zion.  There are not many BibleReader.  Only 144K.  The Assyrian cannot touch them (their lives), but he can oppress them.  They are not free yet, but these are sealed. 

 

Isaiah 33:14   The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
 

[Michael37]

On 3/17/2021 at 2:51 AM, BibleReader said:

Very good, I also believe that Isaiah chapter 37 was a historical narrative of events regarding the Assyrians in Hezekiah's day.  Chapter 31 on the other hand seems to be prophetic, pointing to the future.  

Isaiah 10:24:  "So here is what the Sovereign Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: “My people who live in Zion, do not be afraid of Assyria, even though they beat you with a club and lift their cudgel against you as Egypt did."  

• When did Assyria ever beat Zion with a club?  It could not have happened during Hezekiah's day, correct?  (See 2 Kings 19:32, 33)

In light of this, could Isaiah chapters 10 and 11 along with chapters 31 and 32 be pointing to the future?  

 

The distress which Hezekiah and his company of officials exhibited at:

• the invasion of Judah by Assyria under their King, Sennacharib,
• the encampment of the great Assyrian host he sent to Jerusalem* and
• the blasphemous threats he made against Hezekiah and those in Jerusalem/Mt.Zion, both verbally through his officials, and by letter

is sufficient for these to be spoken of metaphorically as the smiting with a rod and the lifting up of a staff by Assyria.

*(2Ki 18:17  And the king of Assyria sent Tartan and Rabsaris and Rabshakeh from Lachish to king Hezekiah with a great host against Jerusalem)

2Ki 18:37  Then came Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah the son of Asaph the recorder, to Hezekiah with their clothes rent, and told him the words of Rabshakeh.

2Ki 19:1-4  And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD.  (2)  And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.  (3)  And they said unto him, Thus says Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.  (4)  It may be the LORD your God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master has sent to reproach the living God; and will reprove the words which the LORD thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that are left.

Quote from John Gill's Exposition on Isaiah 10:24

He shall smite thee with a rod; be an instrument of chastising and correcting, but not of destroying; Jarchi interprets it of smiting with the rod of his mouth, by means of Rabshakeh reproaching, and blaspheming: 

and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt; which Kimchi explains of the tribute the Assyrians exacted of them, in like manner as the Egyptians set taskmasters over them, and afflicted them with hard bondage, in Egypt: the sense is, that though the Assyrians should annoy and distress them, yet should not utterly consume them; there would be an end of their oppression, and a deliverance out of it; even as when they were in Egypt, and oppressed there, the Lord appeared for them, and supported them, and at length saved them, and so he would now. Mention is made of a rod and a staff, in allusion to what the Assyrian is said to be in the hand of the Lord, Isa_10:5.

You ask "could Isaiah chapters 10 and 11 along with chapters 31 and 32 be pointing to the future? "

I wouldn't build the case that some do for a future fulfillment, but rather, as with almost all of Scripture, in the absence of sound evidence of a type or shadow I find useful analogies and likenesses.

Many passages in Isaiah make very good sense for local and regional fulfillment of prophecy in the first instance, so I avoid the spurious claims that tend to muddy the waters.

[BibleReader]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Hello BibleReader

Yes that's what the scriptures say, and what the prophets have been warning about for thousands of years.  Not just Israel, but all the nations.  All have been serving the King of Babylon, and in the end, he doesn't give anything good but wants to destroy all. 

 Isaiah 10:20   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

  Isaiah 10:21   The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

  Isaiah 10:22   For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

  Isaiah 10:23   For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

  Isaiah 10:24   Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

  Isaiah 10:25   For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

  Isaiah 10:26   And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt.

  Isaiah 10:27   And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

 

The remnant of Jacob are the flesh Jews.  Only a 'remnant' will return (to Zion during the Millennium)  Those who are spared, and those who have died will come back from the grave to live in the 'flesh'...from all generations.

Zion is God's holy kingdom on 'earth'.  Whoever follows in Christ's steps are the true children of Zion.  There are not many BibleReader.  Only 144K.  The Assyrian cannot touch them (their lives), but he can oppress them.  They are not free yet, but these are sealed. 

 

Isaiah 33:14   The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
 

Thanks for your input, very interesting indeed.  

The only issue I have is spiritualizing certain terms such as "Assyrian" or "Egypt" based on one's interpretation.  In Revelation 11:8, a specific location outside of Egypt is called "Egypt" and "Sodom".  So when the Bible spiritualizes certain terms, I accept it.  But when anyone else does and makes a certain application, I always wonder: 'how can they be so sure?'  In all, I respect each one's viewpoint, but I'm simply expressing my feeling toward certain interpretations.  

[BibleReader]

2 minutes ago, BibleReader said:

Thanks for your input, very interesting indeed.  

The only issue I have is spiritualizing certain terms such as "Assyrian" or "Egypt" based on one's interpretation.  In Revelation 11:8, a specific location outside of Egypt is called "Egypt" and "Sodom".  So when the Bible spiritualizes certain terms, I accept it.  But when anyone else does and makes a certain application, I always wonder: 'how can they be so sure?'  In all, I respect each one's viewpoint, but I'm simply expressing my feeling toward certain interpretations.  

 

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Quote from John Gill's Exposition on Isaiah 10:24

He shall smite thee with a rod; be an instrument of chastising and correcting, but not of destroying; Jarchi interprets it of smiting with the rod of his mouth, by means of Rabshakeh reproaching, and blaspheming: 

Thanks for your input.  John Gill's explanation is interesting.  I wonder if it takes into account the events described in verses 22 and 23 about "Destruction" being "decreed" along with "just punishment" that would "engulf" Israel?  Such a destruction obviously did not occur in Hezekiah's day.  

But leaving Isaiah chapter 10 aside for a moment, Zechariah 10:10, 11 is very peculiar:  "I will . . . gather them from Assyria. . .the pride of Assyria will be humbled. . ."

• Would you agree that this prophecy was written around 520 BCE?  
• Would you also agree that the Assyrian empire had fallen approximately a century prior to the writing of Zechariah?  ("Nabopolassar's uprising against the Neo-Assyrian Empire. . .eventually led to the complete destruction of the Assyrian Empire and the rise of the Neo-Babylonian Empire in its place." - Wikipedia under "Nabopolassar")  
• If you agree with the two points above, would you also agree that the prophecy recorded at Zechariah 10:10, 11 may be pointing to the future since the Assyrian empire had long been destroyed at the time of the writing?  

Lastly, I'd like to mention that this has been a very enriching discussion for me, I've learned quite a few things and I have thoroughly enjoyed it.  I don't pretend to have all the answers, I have more questions than answers, but I believe I have a better understanding of things now than I did before.  Thank you.  

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Would you agree that this prophecy was written around 520 BCE?  

Scholars differ slightly as to the OT timeline but one of my sources has Zechariah at 522 - 509 BC.

 

5 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Would you also agree that the Assyrian empire had fallen approximately a century prior to the writing of Zechariah?  ("Nabopolassar's uprising against the Neo-Assyrian Empire. . .eventually led to the complete destruction of the Assyrian Empire and the rise of the Neo-Babylonian Empire in its place." - Wikipedia under "Nabopolassar")  

Ninevah was the capital of Assyria and with its fall to the Babylonians and Medes in 612 the end of the Assyrian Empire was imminent.

There would be several more campaigns against Assyria by the Neo-Babylonians and their allies, including one against an allied Egyptian-Assyrian army. Thus, while the battle of Nineveh was a turning point in the war, Ashur-uballit II would fight on for several more years. His ultimate fate is not known or recorded — he may have been killed at the fall of Harran in 609 BC (which ended the Assyrian Empire) or at Carchemish in 605 BC (where Egypt and remnants of the army of the former Assyrian Empire were defeated); or he may have simply disappeared into obscurity. [Battle of Nineveh (612 BCE) - Wikipedia]

5 hours ago, BibleReader said:

If you agree with the two points above, would you also agree that the prophecy recorded at Zechariah 10:10, 11 may be pointing to the future since the Assyrian empire had long been destroyed at the time of the writing? 

Assyrian captivity - Wikipedia

Return to Zion - Wikipedia

In the first instance I am inclined towards the return of exiles after the Babylonian captivity, bearing in mind that the Northern Kingdom of Israel ceased to exist after it fell to Assyria in 722 BC under Sargon II who was predecessor to Sennacharib, and the deportation of a large contingent of Israelites to Assyria makes it likely that some descendants of these returned to Zion after the Babylonian captivity, but recognition of tribal affiliation was a problem by then so as far as I am aware, nothing more definite than the fact that Israelites were exiled to Assyria, and some of their descendants may have returned, can be established.

According to Sargon's own inscriptions, 27,290 Israelites were deported from Israel and resettled across the Assyrian Empire, following the standard Assyrian way of dealing with defeated enemy peoples through resettlement. This specific resettlement resulted in the famous loss of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.^[15] [Sargon II - Wikipedia]

Thanks for stirring these matters up, @BibleReader The subject of captivity and escape from it is at the heart of the Gospel, so we are right in edifying one another by assembling online to discuss these things. 

Rom 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
 

[Sister]

8 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Thanks for your input, very interesting indeed.  

The only issue I have is spiritualizing certain terms such as "Assyrian" or "Egypt" based on one's interpretation.  In Revelation 11:8, a specific location outside of Egypt is called "Egypt" and "Sodom".  So when the Bible spiritualizes certain terms, I accept it.  But when anyone else does and makes a certain application, I always wonder: 'how can they be so sure?'  In all, I respect each one's viewpoint, but I'm simply expressing my feeling toward certain interpretations.  

Hi BibleReader.

Many prophesies are dual, speaking to them in their day, and also speaking to us today.  God doesn't expect us to become historians and spend all our efforts going back to the past in great depth, because what he has given us is sufficient, to show us that what happened before is a shadow of things to come.  To reveal this to us he uses metaphors when speaking about end times.  This is why some things cannot be reconciled with history because he is speaking in the spirit about the nature of a certain king, or place or time and applying it to our biggest enemy and the land he controls today. I respect that you want to go back into history to reconcile what matches and what doesn't.  Sorry if I got off topic, I just wanted to express a certain thing that was mentioned on this thread whilst I felt inspired.  I will go now.  All the best.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Sister

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

This is why some things cannot be reconciled with history because he is speaking in the spirit about the nature of a certain king, or place or time and applying it to our biggest enemy and the land he controls today. I respect that you want to go back into history to reconcile what matches and what doesn't. 

Well, it's exactly because I keep finding history and Scripture in sync that I avoid the spurious speculations that raise their heads.

[Sister]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Well, it's exactly because I keep finding history and Scripture in sync that I avoid the spurious speculations that raise their heads.

How would you interpret this one Michael37?

 

Isaiah 14:4   That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

 Isaiah 14:5   The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

 Isaiah 14:6   He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

 Isaiah 14:7   The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

 Isaiah 14:8   Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

 Isaiah 14:9   Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

 Isaiah 14:10   All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

 Isaiah 14:11   Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 Isaiah 14:12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

[Michael37]

21 hours ago, Sister said:

How would you interpret this one Michael37?

 

Isaiah 14:4   That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

 Isaiah 14:5   The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

 Isaiah 14:6   He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

 Isaiah 14:7   The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

 Isaiah 14:8   Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

 Isaiah 14:9   Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

 Isaiah 14:10   All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

 Isaiah 14:11   Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 Isaiah 14:12   How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Hi Sister,

I concur with the Bible Believer's Commentary which I quote below for your interest:

Isaiah 14:1-23
14:1, 2 The LORD in His mercy will restore Israel to their own land. Gentile nations will assist in the return and live peacefully with God's people. Israel's former overlords will be her servants.
Jacob and the house of Israel represent the Jews in captivity in Babylon. The Lord's choosing them means His delivering them from the country of captivity and settling them back in their own land. Those strangers who clung to the house of Jacob are the proselytes from Babylon. The people that bring them to their place would consist of the favorable backing of Cyrus and others who helped the Jews in their return.
14:3-11 Free from persecution and hard bondage, Israel will sing a taunt song against the king of Babylon. The LORD has broken his power and ended his tyranny. Now the earth rejoices—even the forests, which will no longer be denuded by his armies. Peace at last! Sheol's inhabitants are there to greet him, delighted that he too has been stripped of power. The pomp and pageantry of Babylon's king has passed away. The palace music is ended. He sleeps on a sheet of maggots, and is covered by a blanket of worms.
14:12-17 As the taunt song continues, the theme seems to expand from the fall of the king of Babylon to the fall of the one who energized him, Satan (Lucifer) himself. Ryrie writes that this is "evidently a reference to Satan, because of Christ's similar description (Luk_10:18) and because of the inappropriateness of the expressions of Isa_14:13-14 on the lips of any but Satan (cf. 1Ti_3:6)." Because this Day Star, son of the morning, proudly asserted his will above the will of God, he was cast out of heaven. Verses 13, 14 record the notorious "I will's" of Satan in his defiance of God. Eventually he will be consigned to Sheol, an object of astonishment. The denizens of Sheol will marvel that one who exercised such power has been brought so low.
14:18-21 Returning to the king of Babylon, the song mentions that while most kings lie in magnificent tombs, he is denied a decent burial. He will have no monument, and the royal line (his children) will be cut off.
14:22, 23 The city of Babylon will be depopulated and swept clean by the broom of God.

[Sister]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Sister,

I concur with the Bible Believer's Commentary which I quote below for your interest:

Thanks Michael 37

I wish to respond to the Commentary below;

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Isaiah 14:1-23
14:1, 2 The LORD in His mercy will restore Israel to their own land. Gentile nations will assist in the return and live peacefully with God's people. Israel's former overlords will be her servants.
Jacob and the house of Israel represent the Jews in captivity in Babylon. The Lord's choosing them means His delivering them from the country of captivity and settling them back in their own land. Those strangers who clung to the house of Jacob are the proselytes from Babylon. The people that bring them to their place would consist of the favorable backing of Cyrus and others who helped the Jews in their return.

 

This prophecy is mainly speaking about the Millennium to come, and a short time after that. It is speaking about the remnants of the flesh Jews who will be restored back to God. It has nothing to do with the King of Babylon back then, or Cyrus, with the decree to rebuild the second temple (that was destroyed), but speaking about the time that is coming when we enter into Christ's rest (1000 years of peace, no wars).

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

14:3-11 Free from persecution and hard bondage, Israel will sing a taunt song against the king of Babylon. The LORD has broken his power and ended his tyranny. Now the earth rejoices—even the forests, which will no longer be denuded by his armies. Peace at last! Sheol's inhabitants are there to greet him, delighted that he too has been stripped of power. The pomp and pageantry of Babylon's king has passed away. The palace music is ended. He sleeps on a sheet of maggots, and is covered by a blanket of worms.

God is declaring the truth, the peaceful state of the earth whilst Satan is locked up for a thousand years leading to Satan's end.  This is why the whole earth is singing.  Not just Israel, but even all the remants of the Gentile nations.  No wars!  Christ is ruling.  The earth is at peace. 

Revelation 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that *he should deceive the nations no more*, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Babylon back then was taken over by the Mede's who were more fierce.  Not a reason for the whole world to rejoice because wars did not end.

The King of Babylon back then did not smote the people with a continual stroke.  He was only here for a short time, but this particular King of Babylon has been here since the beginning, corrupting and causing all the wars and oppressions continually without a break. 

And now God is revealing who this particular King of Babylon is that he is mentioning, and he reveals to us it is Lucifer he is speaking about.

In the book of Revelation, we care called to come out of Babylon now.  Babylon back then does not exist, and is no more.  Babylon today - the Golden City is Satan's domain and is of the earth.  All the kingdoms of the world that Satan offered Jesus is Satan's land called Babylon - the City of Confusion.  All who are joined to her will remain in that state of confusion to serve that King, until Christ punishes and destroys that land forever and sets the captives free (whom he choses)

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

14:12-17 As the taunt song continues, the theme seems to expand from the fall of the king of Babylon to the fall of the one who energized him, Satan (Lucifer) himself. Ryrie writes that this is "evidently a reference to Satan, because of Christ's similar description (Luk_10:18) and because of the inappropriateness of the expressions of Isa_14:13-14 on the lips of any but Satan (cf. 1Ti_3:6)." Because this Day Star, son of the morning, proudly asserted his will above the will of God, he was cast out of heaven. Verses 13, 14 record the notorious "I will's" of Satan in his defiance of God. Eventually he will be consigned to Sheol, an object of astonishment. The denizens of Sheol will marvel that one who exercised such power has been brought so low.

He has some truth in there here, but this commentator has not perceived that Lucifer is that King of Babylon that the proverb was addressed to, as a witness against him. 

He also does not mention, or maybe you just didn't quote it, that this same King of Babylon is also referred to as 'the Assyrian'.

 Isaiah 14:25   That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Isaiah 14:26   This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Isaiah 14:27   For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

 

The king of Babylon will be no more during the millennium, because 'his land' is destroyed. That kingdom is no more, never to return, but 'the Assyrian' the God of war, and military might will will return AFTER the thousand years for one more war (Gog and Magog war)  And this is when the Assyrian (Lucifer) will see his end.  And this is the purpose of God, to DESTROY SATAN for good after all is fulfilled.

So you see Satan is also referred to as 'the Assyrian', because of that role he has always played, putting the nations and peoples against one another.  His land now is the land of war, right up until he is destroyed.

I pray you have a love for the truth.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Sister