Our Generation's "Tower of Babel"

[Hands On]

      For me its the attempt by finite mankind to outsmart his infinite God. "19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.As it is written (ftJob 5:13 my insert): He catches the wise in their craftiness 20 and again, 'The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile (ft Ps 94:11 my insert)"(N.IV.1 Cor.3:19-20)Although the following quote is not Scriptural nevertheless from a logical point of view it more than states the obvious in the citation from Scientist Isaac Asimov "Furthermore , the advance of technology cannot help but increase the power of the individual human being to commit effective violence...This continues without limit.Human beings now have at their disposal a series of weapons deadlier than they have ever had, and they still strive for a further intensification of deadliness.

        We can conclude that it is impossible for any species to be intelligent without coming to understand the meaning of competition, to foresee the dangers of losing out in competition, to develop an indefinite number of material things and immaterial abstractions over which to compete, and to develop weapons of increasing power that will help them compete.

        Consequently , when the time comes where the weapons the intelligent species develops are so powerful and destructive that they outstrip the capacity of the species to recover and rebuild - the civilization automatically comes to an end."(Isaac,Azimov.  Exraterrestrial Civilizations p 211)Besides the Book of Revelation as our guide and warning we can be sure that God will destroy any "foolishness" (1 Cor.3:19) that gets in His way or purpose with this world and universe.I don't believe it will be a relatively soft  "tap on the wrist", as in "confusing languages"(Gen.11:9).

[DeighAnn]

 

Genesis 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Genesis 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.   (Land of Shinar/ Babel / Iraq of today) 

Genesis 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

MAN TRYING TO TAKE SALVATION OUT OF GODS HANDS AND TO PUT IT INTO THEIR OWN.  

Genesis 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
(We should take note of where WE are today, and the ease to which all languages are once again made one)  

Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Genesis 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Genesis 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called BABEL(894); because the LORD did there confound (1101) the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Babel  894 is 
FROM  balal  1101
to mingle, mix, confuse, confound ,

A STATE of Confusion came upon the whole world.  That confusion today is BABYLON.  

What is the tower of babel today?  False doctrines and teachings IN WHICH MAN PRONOUNCES HIS OWN SALVATION.  

AND any teaching that takes what is a TRUTH OF GOD, breaks it down into details and then expounds upon those and TEACHES that "it must be true" but it only comes about by mans wisdom, not Gods Truth and causes untold confusion by muddying the waters making His Truth is hard to find.   

 WORDS and DOCTRINES not found TAUGHT as such in the Word of God but taught as though they were.  

 LOOK IT UP YOURSELF. 
"once saved always saved" or "rapture" or 'pre tribulation'.  They don't even bother to start of with GODS WORDS.  

WHAT, imho, is wrong with these?  They leave  THE EWES  not able to come to Gods Truth.  They are slogans and as such mislead those who need His Truth most.  They convince them that 'THEN HAVE ARRIVED' when in reality they haven't even taken more than the first few steps of the journey.  They negate the necessary actions needed to 'withstand the fiery darts', them being some of the darts themselves.  They do not put on the whole armor of God. 

YOU CAN'T BE DECEIVED IF YOU WONT BE HERE CAN YOU?  NO.  BUT WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN?  

THAT THERE IS NO DECEPTION COMING YOUR WAY THAT YOU NEED TO BE AWARE OF.  SO GO BUY SELL WORSHIP, YOU CAN'T GO WRONG BECAUSE WHEN THE TRUE DECEPTION WILL HAVE ARRIVED YOU WILL HAVE ALREADY BEEN GONE.  ONLY PROBLEM IS IS THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAP SPOKEN OF IN THE WORD OF GOD.  GODS WRATH HAS FALLEN BEFORE AND NOT TOUCHED THOSE WHO WERE UNDER HIS WING.  HE HAS NEVER HAD TO TAKE ANY ONE AWAY BEFORE SO THERE IS NO NEED TO TAKE ANYONE AWAY AGAIN.  ENDURE .  YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS?  REMAIN BEHIND.  PRE TRIB HAS  EVERYONE BELIEVING THAT TO 'BE LEFT BEHIND' IS A BAD THING WHEN IN FACT WE ARE TOLD THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING TO DO.  i'LL STOP THERE.  

EXCEPT for the OSAS message.  If this were in fact a truth for EVERYONE there would be no IFS in relation to it.  There would be no blotting out of the book of life.  There would be no warnings to 'not be deceived by any man'.  

The Word of God is not written to those not reading it.  So the words YE SHALL SEE, means YOU, not someone else.    
 

[other one]

1 hour ago, Matthew Umbarger said:

Personally, I cannot agree with this, for one simple reason: angelic beings do not have material bodies that require physical portals for their movement.

they were the same during the time of the tower of Babel.

I disagree that they can not have material bodies, but it is true they do have the ability to come and go.   Not as simple as you might think though.

[Alive]

2 hours ago, Matthew Umbarger said:

Personally, I cannot agree with this, for one simple reason: angelic beings do not have material bodies

Scripture disagrees with you. Angels have appeared with physical bodies on numerous occasions and even eaten food.

Gen. 19:1 (NAS95S)   Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. ² And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” ³ Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate

[Matthew Umbarger]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Good Holy Ones and those that fell can basically do as the Gen 6 account tells us. Read Psalm 82 where the Lord High God tells them they will die like men. See the 'men' that visited Abram and ate with him. Then they went and rescued Lot and family. They can be immaterial or corporeal depending on what is required. The apostle says for us to be sure to be kind to strangers since many have entertained 'angelos' unawares.

 

Interesting, Justin. So, I take it that you are a universal hylomorphist? I.e., you believe that even angels and other spirits have some sort of corporality?

Aquinas talks about angels assuming bodies, and he talks about the texts that you mention, as well. And he even invokes Augustine to do it!!!!

"Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xvi) that angels appeared to Abraham under assumed bodies. I answer that, Some have maintained that the angels never assume bodies, but that all that we read in Scripture of apparitions of angels happened in prophetic vision—that is, according to imagination. But this is contrary to the intent of Scripture; for whatever is beheld in imaginary vision is only in the beholder's imagination, and consequently is not seen by everybody. Yet Divine Scripture from time to time introduces angels so apparent as to be seen commonly by all; just as the angels who appeared to Abraham were seen by him and by his whole family, by Lot, and by the citizens of Sodom; in like manner the angel who appeared to Tobias was seen by all present. From all this it is clearly shown that such apparitions were beheld by bodily vision, whereby the object seen exists outside the person beholding it, and can accordingly be seen by all. Now by such a vision only a body can be beheld. Consequently, since the angels are not bodies, nor have they bodies naturally united with them, as is clear from what has been said (Article 1; I:50:1), it follows that they sometimes assume bodies."-Summa Theologiae, First Part, Question 51, Article 2.

So, according to both Augustine and Aquinas, an angel can assume physical form. But they aren't required to. This brings me to the part of the CERN article that is strange to me. It seems to suggest that without portals that we make for them, demons can't invade our world. 

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Beware of Augustinian theology that seeks to rob scripture of the supernatural.

Yeah, not going to argue about this here. Suffice it to say that I am quite fond of Augustine. I think that we in Western Christianity owe him a great deal, because God used him to save the Church from the Pelagianists who were teaching that Grace was not sufficient for salvation, but works were needed as well.

Of course, Augustine was wrong about all sorts of things. Part of what Aquinas does is correct some of Augustine's mistakes. Aquinas is indebted to Augustine for lots of things, but he's really doing his own thing. Augustine is more Platonic, and Aquinas is more Aristotelian.

But I have never, ever heard anyone accuse Augustine of "robbing Scripture of the supernatural." That's a new one for me. I'm curious about what you mean by that.

[Matthew Umbarger]

1 hour ago, other one said:

they were the same during the time of the tower of Babel.

I disagree that they can not have material bodies, but it is true they do have the ability to come and go.   Not as simple as you might think though.

I apologize if I was unclear; I absolutely agree that angels can have material bodies, but it is not a natural aspect of their being, but an assumed one. See my response to Justin Adams above.

[Matthew Umbarger]

And I didn't intend for this to become a theology discussion, or I would have started in that part of the forum. But, since we're here, I am enjoying the give and take.

But I apologize if it's a problem that it has gotten into theology.

[Alive]

I have moved the thread elsewhere.

[DeighAnn]

32 minutes ago, Matthew Umbarger said:

I apologize if I was unclear; I absolutely agree that angels can have material bodies, but it is not a natural aspect of their being, but an assumed one. See my response to Justin Adams above.

I don't believe that ANGELS get to choose anymore than we do (at this point in my knowledge).  I would like to know what scripture led you there.  (Unless you are referring to the 'evil spirits' under Satans influence that can possess a man, I have those scriptures)  I am asking about angels in general which seems to be what you are saying.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Even going back to Genesis God is particular about SEED and kind after kind and HE definitely doesn't like 'mixing' things together.  That wool and linen law really opened my eyes.  



As Christ did as we did

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Hebrews 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Oh, gotta add that to the growing list.  

Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.



We know that 

flesh and blood can not be in the kingdom with God and as we 

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

and we already have the verse of Christ saying 'a spirit hath not flesh and bone'

Just so you know where I am coming from....

[Matthew Umbarger]

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I don't believe that ANGELS get to choose anymore than we do (at this point in my knowledge).  I would like to know what scripture led you there.  (Unless you are referring to the 'evil spirits' under Satans influence that can possess a man, I have those scriptures)  I am asking about angels in general which seems to be what you are saying.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Even going back to Genesis God is particular about SEED and kind after kind and HE definitely doesn't like 'mixing' things together.  That wool and linen law really opened my eyes.  



As Christ did as we did

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Hebrews 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Oh, gotta add that to the growing list.  

Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.



We know that 

flesh and blood can not be in the kingdom with God and as we 

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

and we already have the verse of Christ saying 'a spirit hath not flesh and bone'

Just so you know where I am coming from....

DeighAnn, I think that we basically agree. I was responding to some of the objections that others had posed here based on those texts that refer to angels interacting with human beings, including eating things (as Abraham's three visitors did). Whether or not an angel can choose to assume bodily form is an interesting question. But it is certainly not their natural state, as you demonstrate with those brilliant texts you assembled for us. In fact, elsewhere Aquinas goes so far as to say that the bodies that angels assume are not even living bodies, but a sort of temporary organic machine that they use to interact with the physical world. 

As for whether or not demons can do the same sort of thing, I acknowledge that there is no explicit evidence that they can. I think that this partly explains the phenomenon of possession. 

Some will probably counter that Genesis 6 talks about the sons of God (angels?) having sexual relations with the daughters of men. This is a troublesome text, and it has been argued about for ages. Personally, I think that the best solution has been proposed by a biblical researcher named Bruce Vawter in a book that he wrote on Genesis in the 1970s. He suggests that what is going on is probably pagan sex rituals here. A priest in the guise of a false god is vicariously copulating with the daughters of men in question. Obviously, these gods are nothing more than demons, i.e., fallen angels, or "sons of God," and the priests involved are surely possessed by them.

But we have to humbly confess that we don't have much biblical revelation on the matter.

All this to say, I agree with you: angels don't (under normal circumstances!) have physical bodies that could travel through a material portal manufactured with a supercollider.