Riverwalker Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 1,753 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/09/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2021 On what...if not the bible, do you base your conclusions on? Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal. So If God said how and when he created the world, what authority do you site, to dispute the literalness of it? Would the same source hold the same validity if it told you there is no spiritual realm, that there is no life after death, that there is no God, There is no Salvation, there is no hope? Only the bible interprets the bible. If you can find a scripture that disputes creation and that Adam and Ever were in the Beginning with God, please quote it, for I find Jesus saying... Mark 10: 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ Watch the voice you let whisper in your ear, for the enemy comes and sows tares about the wheat, hoping to destroy the crop 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddyv Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,265 Content Per Day: 2.90 Reputation: 2,302 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2021 I would not suggest the Bible is neither fully figurative or fully literal - that is, literal in the way we would use the word these days. It is range of genres including history, poetry (which is often figurative), legal, wisdom, prophecy and myth. Each style can carry unique qualities that need to be addressed in different ways. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,393 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,566 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 22, 2021 The Bible is God's Word and what you do with it determines the kind of faith you will hold to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2021 I have just spent a mind numbing hour reading a peer review scholar on just Genesis 1 by a Hebraic Phd. Before we take our english translations too seriously, I suggest we try to get into the mindset of the original writer and his audience. Those authors are expert at their task. Much is polemic and sets out to extol The Lord High God (YHWH) over all other gods and pantheons. To argue points from just our translations often leads to misunderstandings, especially if they are not recent translations that mostly include Qumran texts and other verifiable sources not available to our earlier biblical scholars. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GandalfTheWise Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Popular Post Share Posted February 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Riverwalker said: Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal. I think that this statement needs to be qualified or clarified to some degree. Here is a passage that seems to use literal language. 6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears. 7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. 8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. 9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. 10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. 11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. 12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire. 13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire. 14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them. 15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils. 16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters. Psalm 18:6-16 KJV However, there is no record of this event in Samuel, Kings, or Chronicles or elsewhere. I cannot recall any place in David's life where earthquakes occurred to save him, nor where David saw God or visions of God, nor where David was miraculously rescued from drowning. Given the way miraculous things are routinely mentioned in narratives, it seems that if Ps 18 was literal, there's have been at least some passing mention of these extraordinary events. Here is a passage that sounds like a direct command from Jesus that Christians universally agree is to be taken figuratively and not literally obeyed. 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48 KJV Finally, here are passages that would seem to teach that the earth is flat if taken literally rather than figuratively. Most Christians recognize terms such as sunrise and sunset not as Biblical teaching that the sun revolves around the earth but rather that it's the common usage of what it looks like. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. Rev 7:1 KJV And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Is 11:12 KJV 10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great. 11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: Dan 4:10-11 KJV (The implication being for all the world to see a tall tree, it could not be a globe.) As a practical matter, the debate among the vast majority of Christians on various passages is which are to be taken figuratively and which are to be taken literally. In practice, very few Christians believe every passage is to be taken literally and most concede that some need to be taken figuratively in some manner. As @teddyv said above, most Christians see that different parts of the Bible need to be read keeping in mind what they were intended to be. Psalms and Job tend to be figurative at points. Other passages are narratives telling what happened. Some things (such as the Law of Moses) need to be understood within the historical context of the people of Israel rather than as regular practice in the church (though it appears from Acts that some Jewish believers continued to observe the Law while gentile believers did not). 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popsthebuilder Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 299 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 87 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/13/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Riverwalker said: On what...if not the bible, do you base your conclusions on? Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal. So If God said how and when he created the world, what authority do you site, to dispute the literalness of it? Would the same source hold the same validity if it told you there is no spiritual realm, that there is no life after death, that there is no God, There is no Salvation, there is no hope? Only the bible interprets the bible. If you can find a scripture that disputes creation and that Adam and Ever were in the Beginning with God, please quote it, for I find Jesus saying... Mark 10: 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ Watch the voice you let whisper in your ear, for the enemy comes and sows tares about the wheat, hoping to destroy the crop Base it on the bible. Seems the vast majority of the bible is double or triple entendres. The bible speaks of a worldly metric and a spiritual mindset, and that they are relative opposites. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopefully Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 1,323 Content Per Day: 1.05 Reputation: 1,465 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/07/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, GandalfTheWise said: Here is a passage that seems to use literal language. I agree with what you are saying. I am one who attempts to take the Bible as literally as possible and Gods Spirit guides me to understanding. I never once thought I should actually cut my hand off and after reading the Psalms verses you just posted I wasn’t thinking those things literally happened. I think the problem comes in when people try to give things new meaning to fit their specific agendas but in doing so tell you the entire Bible means something other than what it says Fir example a guy told me he is one of the 144,000 “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Revelation 14:1, 4 So I said you are not a virgin and even more so you are a fornicator. He then went on to explain that a virgin did not mean one who has never had sex and that fornication was the same as adultery. I then said you ask me for nudes but the Bible says “But I tell you that if a man looks at a woman and wants to sin sexually with her, he has already committed that sin with her in his mind.” Matthew 5:28 He then re explained that because I’m not married it’s not fornication he only can’t look at another mans wife this way. If they are able to successfully twist one or two things with us then they can successfully twist everything. I believe God has allowed our English translations for our edification and the Holy Spirit guides us in understanding. I think it’s important for us to remember that not everyone who reads the Bible has faith in God so “People who do not have God’s Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit’s help. We who have the Spirit are able to make judgments about all these things. But anyone without the Spirit is not able to make proper judgments about us. As the Scriptures say, “Who can know what is on the Lord’s mind? Who is able to give him advice?” Isaiah 40:13 But we have been given Christ’s way of thinking.” 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 Haven’t we met or heard of Satanist who know the Bible better than believers? How can one attack if they don’t know what to attack. “And I will continue doing what I am doing now, because I want to stop those people from having a reason to boast. They would like to say that the work they boast about is the same as ours. They are false apostles, lying workers. They only pretend to be apostles of Christ. That does not surprise us, because even Satan changes himself to look like an angel of light. So it does not surprise us if Satan’s servants make themselves look like servants who work for what is right. But in the end those people will get the punishment they deserve.” 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 Trust in the Lord and the Holy Spirit that dwells in us. Note: I don’t know everything and have questions but I get explanation from those who go along with the word not against it, and the Holy Spirit says yes this is good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwalker Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 1,753 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/09/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said: . As @teddyv said above, most Christians see that different parts of the Bible need to be read keeping in mind what they were intended to be. Psalms and Job tend to be figurative at points. Other passages are narratives telling what happened. Some things (such as the Law of Moses) need to be understood within the historical context of the people of Israel rather than as regular practice in the church (though it appears from Acts that some Jewish believers continued to observe the Law while gentile believers did not). The point being even the figurative, is literal. What happened to Job and the feelings expressed by Him and others were real. When the bible records what a person said in the bible, it is not necessarily validating what they said, just that they said it Figurative language is also used in places like psalms to express more complex spiritual ideas. And like John David is expressing in natural terms what he observed in the spiritual reality. (Also it could have happened in the natural and just not been recorded.) Either way it is what GOD wanted us to know Finally, the truth is not impacted at all by our perception of it, but our perception of it should be impacted by the truth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearningToLetGo Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 717 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 660 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/21/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2021 The forth day has me scratching my head. Genesis 1:16-19 English Standard Version 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. If the sun and moon weren't created until day 4, what metric did God use to define the first three days? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeyondET Posted February 22, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,874 Content Per Day: 1.22 Reputation: 816 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/1968 Share Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Riverwalker said: On what...if not the bible, do you base your conclusions on? Everything in the bible is meant to be literal, even the parables and and "figurative" language that is used to convey a complex Idea is still literal as the Concept is meant to be literal. So If God said how and when he created the world, what authority do you site, to dispute the literalness of it? Would the same source hold the same validity if it told you there is no spiritual realm, that there is no life after death, that there is no God, There is no Salvation, there is no hope? Only the bible interprets the bible. If you can find a scripture that disputes creation and that Adam and Ever were in the Beginning with God, please quote it, for I find Jesus saying... Mark 10: 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ Watch the voice you let whisper in your ear, for the enemy comes and sows tares about the wheat, hoping to destroy the crop If it’s all literal how are women saved through childbirth, if a woman never has a child are they not saved? 1 Timothy 2 15Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. Edited February 22, 2021 by BeyondET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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