The saints (wise virgins) shall be snatched to the cloud means Jesus has not returned yet.

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, I DON'T believe "we go to heaven" AT ALL! We stay in the ground and "sleep!" We decay and slowly go back to dust, but GOD can make us new again, no matter in WHAT state we are found! As I've said before, God is the Creator God who can re-create us as we were before death, only as immortal bodies that will never die again! We're not a "mist" after death, a "spirit," or even a "spiritual body!" We are DEAD!

I GOT IT.  YOU believe DEAD is dead AND will remain DEAD UNTIL THE RETURN OF CHRIST.  And then and ONLY then,  GOD WILL re animate the dust of the earth to which those 12 or 14 BILLION people have been in all states of  decay and decomp (anywhere from a day to 6000 years) ALL AT ONCE.. because He can and you see that as Gods plan for eternal life. 
AND
That is why God created us.  That is what gives God pleasure.  That is how a Just God, a God who suffered and DIED for eternal souls treats ALL of His children, EXCEPT FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN who He raised from the dead and who returned to heaven.  AND the ONLY other two souls in heaven from earth would be Enoch and Elijah.  AND GOD took them to heaven because THEY WERE infinitely more worthy than any of the rest? 

SO, CHRIST REALLY didn't go prepare a place for us,
and our brethren of the prophets are not really speaking with John in heaven,
and there really are no souls under the altar and
and God is the God of the living, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW, making HIM the GOD of the DEAD RIGHT NOW, even though He says he isn't

that being backed by 

the dead WILL EVENTUALY RISE (albeit with NO KNOWLEDGE but what they acquired in the short time they lived on earth, some only knowing life in the womb),
AND WHEN THEY DO, THEN HE WILL BE THE GOD OF THE LIVING

 (Satans bringing in sin was immediate, BUT Christs payment not effective until he returns)  


So, BY one man came death into the world and IT REIGNED, and IS STILL REIGNING, THOUGH the price was paid, AND will continue on UNTIL THE SECOND COMING,

(Am I repeating myself, I think so, because I am really trying to understand how it could be seen that way).  

HIS willing sacrifice TO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, was/is NOT more POWERFUL THAN the sin Satan brought upon the world.  




Let me ask you this, IF SATAN had never caused  SIN to come about,  would there ever have been DEATH? 

 HOW when CHRIST PAID THE PRICE OF THAT SIN (DEATH), IS THERE STILL DEATH reigning on the earth??  WHY, if we are RENDERED to be without SIN, would we STILL BE treated AS IF WE still WERE IN SIN by remaining in the GRIPS OF DEATH?   


I wonder how will those of 3000bc will relate to those of 2020ad.  Gonna be a bit of CONFUSION THERE, HUH?  Since you see THAT as GODS PLAN, you would need to explain it to me.  


So, God sits on His throne in heaven while ALL his children are dead and rotting away for thousands and thousands of years, all the while SATAN happily watches the effects of HIS handy work. Christ sitting right there HAVING already PAID the price, but IS kept waiting and waiting and waiting.  DOES NOT COMPUTE.


 

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


 

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?


 

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

 

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN 

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


NOT AWAITING, NOT SLEEPING, NOT DEAD


Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

NOT DEAD, NOT SLEEPING

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


ONE thing this conversation has made me ponder is WHERE IS MY SPIRITUAL BODY NOW?  As I have to crucify my flesh body each day, I have believed my spiritual body (quickened by the Lord with the death of the flesh at baptism/faith, which ever) takes/is in control within this flesh one

BUT I am now willing to ponder that it may be waiting till actual flesh death takes place to be received.  But, I am always 'in body', and I immediately ascend to heaven upon death of this flesh.  

I hope to have correctly covered your understanding and my so as we can let this go and let God lead the rest of the way... 

I believe we die, go to heaven, return  

You believe we die, remain in the earth till the coming of Christ, to be resurrected then.  

Hopefully your response can end this conversation, that is what I am hoping for and would think you would be also.  So if there are no questions coming my way, PLEASE take the final word.  Thank you for helping me understand your beliefs.  I have definitely been sharpened by this conversation and have been enlightened by the Word as I read it with eyes from a different perspective.   

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

This is the trumpet of Rapture.

Matt 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect.

Just doesn't seem a good practice to say 'it is' something, 

when Gods Word makes no such mention of it, ever.

That would be like 'kept from the hour' meant 'no longer on earth' or

Not appointed to wrath didn't mean anything but HAVE FAITH, Gods Wrath will not touch you, He is in CONTROL. or

Cause the 'church' isn't spoken of after Rev 3 that it has left the earth,  when the churches have just been broken down to EACH INDIVIDUAL being held responsible for themselves as the tribulation comes upon the world.  

There is nothing new under the sun.  We are tested, afflicted, persecuted as all the generations have been.  WE should be better prepared than any of them because we have instant access to Gods Words and He has given us examples of everything that has been done right and wrong and if we follow His commands what awaits us will be more than worth the trouble we have gone through.  Would you give up your life for the Lord and Saviour as he did for you?  Would you stand up for Him as he does you?  Can God count on you to help him further His will that all come to repentance?  Do you have faith in His promises?  Do you know how to remind Him of them.  Do you have faith that He will not put more on you than you could handle?  Do you serve God or do you want God to serve you?

God has taken two people to heaven over the past 6000 years.  All I see with pre trib is a BUNCH of new FIRSTS.  

No death
No judgment
No trib
No persecution
No affliction
No testing of any sort
A sign to the entire world THAT THERE IS A GOD IN HEAVEN.  Certainly the need for 'FAITH' past that point wouldn't still be in play.  I would assume if you saw 1/3 of the earth population disappear, you would drop to your knees right there and then.  AND what happens to the earth?  How could there ever be any wonder or sign to convince anyone of anything after that?  And how does the earth continue to function?  ALL systems would go down.  ALL of them.  Do you really think that within 7 years of that the world could recover?  You obviously haven't given much thought to REV.  There is NO MENTION of coming back from a collapsed system. No mention of any sort of destroyed earth being made right for the rest to take place.  Nothing foretells of the condition a pre trib rap would leave behind.  There couldn't even be wars cause couldn't fix enough planes or get gas or get trucks to get the gas or get people to refine the oil or get people to dredge the oil or get people to manufacture the parts need to dredge or get people to plants to make the parts or get people who know how to make the parts NOT TO mention the severe DEPRESSION upon the entire world.  And that is just one point.  We would be rendered back to a time of bartering, which many have no clue how to do, and what about FOOD?  Not going to be able to use the highways for YEARS WITH all the crashes.....ANY YET THE BIBLE MAKES NO MENTION OF IT?

 

God has a pre trib rapt that can't be found written or taught as a doctrine and not only that makes NOT ONE WORD of how it EFFECTS everything written?  God tells us what animals to eat and which ones not to, but AFTER something WORSE than Noahs flood on the planet, just goes on speaking IN TERMS IN WHICH SOMETHING LIKE THAT NEVER TOOK PLACE.  

I just thank GOD that what I believe I believe because I can go and find written and taught by His prophets.   









 

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Do you not believe that God is able to distinguish the difference between those that are His and those who are not?  Revelation 9:4 (KJV)
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

When all of the trouble begins as stated here believers on the earth will have been sealed with the seal of God.  This will be the safe place and they will not be harmed by those that are sent forth.  God is our safety.

The 144000 n the 2 Witness of Revelation  are literal Hebrew who replaced the church in great tribulation as the church wise  virgins are alrdy raptured to heaven as the great multitude of Revelation 7.

[not an echo]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 3/19/2021 at 8:22 PM, R. Hartono said:

 

This is the trumpet of Rapture.

Matt 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect.

Correct. The one and only and the same as the 7th trump of Revelation.

Hello Diaste,

Are you thinking that the rapture will happen as the 7th Trumpet sounds?

[not an echo]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 3/19/2021 at 8:19 PM, R. Hartono said:

Are u saying that after Jesus gather the saints to the cloud He will then make a U-Turn to return them to earth ?

Luke 21:34 Do not let that Day catch you unaware.

God doesnt want us to be left behind unaware when He gather the saints to the cloud.

I think the u-turn idea is device used to criticize another position. It's an example of a logical fallacy where an opposing argument it extrapolated to unintended lengths and the result disparaged. 

I know of no one in the world advancing such an argument as primary evidence of rapture timing, or even using it as evidence at all.

It looks like it's based on the idea the saints are the armies that return with Jesus. The hagios are not the strateuma. So the whole concept falls flat.

Diaste, where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Diaste, where would you say the antecedent to the first "they" of Revelation 20:4 would be found?

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They..."

So the they are the souls of the beheaded.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Are you thinking that the rapture will happen as the 7th Trumpet sounds?

Yes. But not thinking it, it's written and therefore fact.

Only one last trump exists that we know of which is associated with the end of the age, Jesus coming and the gathering; the 7th trump of Revelation:

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because

you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

18The nations were angry,

and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

There is no other last trump. This trump is the last in a series of 7 trumps. The only such series extant.

Lev 23:24 does not contain either a first or last trump, it's just a day of blowing trumps. Even if there was another series of trumps say like in Joshua 6; it's clear they had an immediate ancient purpose and not associated with Jesus coming, the end of the age nor the great gathering of those in Christ.

So yes, there is one last trump at which Jesus gathers the elect and it's the 7th trump of Revelation.

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I GOT IT.  YOU believe DEAD is dead AND will remain DEAD UNTIL THE RETURN OF CHRIST.  And then and ONLY then,  GOD WILL re animate the dust of the earth to which those 12 or 14 BILLION people have been in all states of  decay and decomp (anywhere from a day to 6000 years) ALL AT ONCE.. because He can and you see that as Gods plan for eternal life. 
AND
That is why God created us.  That is what gives God pleasure.  That is how a Just God, a God who suffered and DIED for eternal souls treats ALL of His children, EXCEPT FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN who He raised from the dead and who returned to heaven.  AND the ONLY other two souls in heaven from earth would be Enoch and Elijah.  AND GOD took them to heaven because THEY WERE infinitely more worthy than any of the rest? 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Sorry this has taken so long.

You get it ... but then, you just as quickly LOSE IT AGAIN! There's no such thing as "eternal souls," ... YET! Since a "soul" is an "air-breathing creature," they must BE "air breathing creatures" again before they can be transformed to become "eternal!"

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

SO, CHRIST REALLY didn't go prepare a place for us,

NO! He really DID go to prepare a place for us: It's called "the New Jerusalem!"

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

and our brethren of the prophets are not really speaking with John in heaven,

Of course not; John had a VISION of what was to come, just as Paul described in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4!

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

and there really are no souls under the altar

No, not at the present time. First, they must be resurrected to be "souls," and the altar must be revealed or replaced for them to stand at the foot of it.

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

and God is the God of the living, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW, making HIM the GOD of the DEAD RIGHT NOW, even though He says he isn't

NO! You're MISREADING THE TEXTS and this can be found in ALL THREE of the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke! So, there's NO EXCUSE for missing Yeshua`s point!

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

that being backed by 

the dead WILL EVENTUALY RISE (albeit with NO KNOWLEDGE but what they acquired in the short time they lived on earth, some only knowing life in the womb),

AND WHEN THEY DO, THEN HE WILL BE THE GOD OF THE LIVING

That's the FIRST thing you've said RIGHT! And, by the way, that should be MANY MILLIONS "only knowing life in the womb," thanks to this ABORTION CRAZE going on right now! I don't care WHO one thinks he or she is; he or she is NOT entitled to MURDER BABIES, just because they got themselves into some trouble!

(Sorry, that's no reflection on you; I'm just PASSIONATE about the subject.)

He's really "already the God of the Living," BECAUSE He will RESURRECT them! That's what the Sadducees missed.

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

(Satan's bringing in sin was immediate, BUT Christ's payment [is] not effective until he returns.)  

There are STAGES to the Redemption! Right now, while a person is alive before death, it is VERY effective when one understands that His payment for sin gives one the IMMEDIATE PROMISE of one's future Resurrection! Having a good understanding of what is to come will make one bold and more courageous to share God's justification of an individual with others! Some people say, "You can't frighten me with Heaven"; I say rather, "You can't frighten me with the Kingdom!" So what if I go to sleep for a little while (however long "a little while" may be)?! I'll awaken just the same when our King returns! It's also only natural that there will be a LEARNING CURVE FOR ALL! I'm absolutely confident that NONE of us have EVERYTHING right! I believe that's why Paul quoted, "Let GOD be true and every man a LIAR!" (Romans 3:4).

And, yes, it's a WHOLE LOT EASIER to make pure white into a shade of gray or black than it is to make black into white again! It only takes ONE SIN to become a SINNER. However, it took the death of His Son, a humble, repentant heart, and a POWERFUL ACT OF GRACE AND LOVE to DECLARE a sinner, "RIGHTEOUS!"

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So, BY one man came death into the world and IT REIGNED, and IS STILL REIGNING, THOUGH the price was paid, AND will continue on UNTIL THE SECOND COMING,

(Am I repeating myself, I think so, because I am really trying to understand how it could be seen that way).

I really appreciate your effort! Death reigning in the world will continue BEYOND the Second Coming! It's not until the DEATH OF DEATH that occurs at the SECOND DEATH following the Great White Throne Judgment:

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them (this is the Resurrection of the UNJUST): and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And DEATH and hell (the Grave) were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This FOLLOWS the Millennium, described in Revelation 20:1-6. Paul described it this way: Remember, his topic for his whole chapter is "RESURRECTION."

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(1) Christ the firstfruits; (this happened in the First Century)
(2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (this happens at the Second Coming)
24 (3) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (this happens AFTER the Millennium)

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. [But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that he (GOD) is excepted, which (who) did put all things under him (the Christ).] 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (this is when the New Earth with its New Sky begins and the New Jerusalem descends)

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HIS willing sacrifice TO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, was/is NOT more POWERFUL THAN the sin Satan brought upon the world.  

Au contraire, ma soeur! (On the contrary, my sister!) It is INDEED THE VICTORY! It's just not as fully realized now as it will be! While it won't be fully realized until after the GWTJ, it's LOCKED IN! There's nothing anyone, not even haSatan, can do to change the outcome! As I said, IT'S A DONE-DEAL!

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Let me ask you this, IF SATAN had never caused  SIN to come about,  would there ever have been DEATH? 

No, I don't believe so. Death is a BY-PRODUCT of sin.

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

HOW when CHRIST PAID THE PRICE OF THAT SIN (DEATH), IS THERE STILL DEATH reigning on the earth??  WHY, if we are RENDERED to be without SIN, would we STILL BE treated AS IF WE still WERE IN SIN by remaining in the GRIPS OF DEATH?   

Because sin and its consequences are ACCUMULATIVE! We are living in a sin-sick world where the sins of the forebears are additive to the sins of our grandparents and the sins of our fathers and mothers, as well as the sins of our relatives and neighbors. All together, the sin, death, and decay of millennia have all contributed to the world in which we have to live today! Even the clouds, high wind-storms, and violent rain are all results of the Flood! So, we are even living in a world that was greatly influenced by the sins of those who lived before the Flood! Every time you hear of a hurricane, a tornado, an violent storm, a drought, a flood, or anything else, it's a result of the weather in which we find ourselves after the Flood which, in turn, was the result of the sins in Adam's world dating all the way back to the Garden! Even Qayin's ("Cain's") murder of Hevel ("Abel") stemmed from Adam's and Chavah's ("Eve's") disobedience!

We're still the children (however many generations removed) of our parents, Noach and his wife, who in turn were children of Adam and Chavah! Sin and its consequential death still exist in our mortal bodies. We're just instructed not to let them REIGN in our mortal bodies!

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I wonder how will those of 3000bc will relate to those of 2020ad.  Gonna be a bit of CONFUSION THERE, HUH?  Since you see THAT as GODS PLAN, you would need to explain it to me.  

Well, in the first place, we're going to have to learn each other's languages (or at least, have a translator or a STRING of translators) to communicate! We have a LOAD of technology that they may have to learn about, bit by bit. To be completely honest, THEY will have a LOAD of their OWN technology that WE may have to learn about, as well!

For instance, we really don't know today just HOW the pyramids in Egypt were built! How did they lift the highest blocks of stone, which are still huge and weigh tons, get placed way up there?

Erich von Daniken, the author who wrote "Chariots of the Gods?," noticed various bits and pieces of technology that he didn't think belonged in their time period. Although he attributed this to "visitors from outer space," he's not wrong about much of the technology! He's found evidences of dry cell batteries, toys that look like modern jet airplanes, and other things that he didn't think should exist in "primitive civilizations." But, God had created Adam fully grown with intelligence enough to communicate with God and with others in language and was able to name ALL the animals that were brought before him! How many of us could do the same thing today?

How much could their technology have grown before the flood, when men and women lived much longer lives, were all related to each other, and shared their information with each other for HUNDREDS of years? Based upon Ussher's chronology, the Flood was in the year 1656 AM or 2348 B.C. How much could they have discovered and utilized in 1,656 years?! They had little business rivalry, barely more than brotherly competition, to overcome (that we know about); so, it's possible they had great advances that we know nothing about today! Look at how much we've accomplished in the last 200 years! Furthermore, their knowledge and development may have been in different directions to that of modern civilization! They may not know much about what we know and use today, but then we may not know much about what THEY knew and used before the Flood or slightly thereafter!

We'll have 1,000 years of GUIDED direction in the areas where we need to grow, and it will probably take us all of that time to learn what we need to know.

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

So, God sits on His throne in heaven while ALL his children are dead and rotting away for thousands and thousands of years, all the while SATAN happily watches the effects of HIS handy work. Christ sitting right there HAVING already PAID the price, but IS kept waiting and waiting and waiting.  DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Well, in the first place, "God's ways are HIGHER than our ways." So, I don't believe that He's too worried about it not making sense to you.

Secondly, the answer, in part, is found in 2 Peter 3:9:

2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is not required to be on OUR timetable. It's WE who are required to be on GOD'S timetable!

Furthermore,

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Thirdly, I don't think you have the right viewpoint of haSatan:

He is DESPERATE to make a mark against God! But, it's not working! God wins despite haSatan's best efforts.

Revelation 12:12 (KJV)

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Oh, no! You don't get to stop there! Keep reading!

John 5:28-30 (KJV)

 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This will happen WHEN HE RETURNS! It's THEN that He will resurrect those who are His to life in the Resurrection of Life! It's THEN that He will be the Judge, for that's the job of the King of Israel, throughout the Millennium! It's AFTER the Millennium that He will be the Judge at the Great White Throne Judgment at the Resurrection of Damnation!

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Look at EVERYTHING He said at this event!

Matthew 22:29-32 (KJV)

29 Jesus answered and said unto them (the Sadducees),

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Mark 12:24-27 (KJV)

 24 And Jesus answering said unto them (the Sadducees),

"Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. 26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Luke 20:34-38 (KJV)

34 And Jesus answering said unto them (the Sadducees),

"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (Greek: tou aioonos ekeinou = "of-the AGE that-one-[is]"), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Again, read the WHOLE account!

Acts 26: (KJV)

1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul,

"Thou art permitted to speak for thyself."

Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

2 "I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: 3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.

4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, 'Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks (ox-goads).' 15 And I said, 'Who art thou, Lord?' And he said, 'I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.'

19 "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ (the Messiah) should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice,

"Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad!" 

25 But he said,

"I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. 26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.  27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest."

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul,

"Almost thou persuadest ME to be a Christian."

29 And Paul said,

"I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds."

 

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

This is a UNIQUE passage of Scripture. While it APPEARS to be using the present tense, it does so for a word that is, by its very nature, a word of the FUTURE!

Hebrews 12:22 says this in the Greek:

22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon,

The word "proseleeluthate" is the perfect, indicative, active form of "proserchomai," with the 2nd person, plural ending. But, HERE'S where it gets interesting:

Not only is this word a MIDDLE word, but it is also PERFECT word! Many translate this as "you have come to," but the perfect tense makes it "you are in the process of coming to," making it an on-going process. Furthermore, as a middle word, it should be rendered "you are in the process of being brought to," with the action being placed back on the subject. Thus, although you ARE PRESENTLY in the process, it's a PROCESS of BEING BROUGHT TO, extending it into the future!

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 FOR HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN 

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

Again, this is a passage about the LIKENESS of baptism to the real thing! It MIMICS the real, but it is NOT the real!

Have to go now. More later...

[Retrobyter]

On 3/20/2021 at 8:21 PM, R. Hartono said:

The 144000 [and] the 2 Witnesses of Revelation  are literal Hebrews who replaced the church in great tribulation as the church wise  virgins are already raptured to heaven as the great multitude of Revelation 7.

Shalom, R. Hartono.

Sorry, brother, but they do NOT "replace the church in [the] great tribulation." First of all, no one gets "raptured to heaven."

Revelation 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth (Land), holding the four winds of the earth (Land), that the wind should not blow on the earth (Land), nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth (Land) and the sea, 3 Saying,

"Hurt not the earth (Land), neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda (Yhuwdaah) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben (R'uwVeen) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad (Gaad) were sealed twelve thousand. 
6 Of the tribe of Aser (Aasheer) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim (Naftaaliy) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses (Mnashsheh) were sealed twelve thousand. 
7 Of the tribe of Simeon (Shim`own) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi (Leeviy) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar (Yisaashkhaar) were sealed twelve thousand. 
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon (ZVuwlun) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph (Ephraim, Efrayim) were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin (Bin-Yaamin) were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb!" 

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying,

"Amen (Truth): Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever (into the ages of the ages). Amen (Truth)."

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,

"What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him,

"Sir, thou knowest."

And he said to me,

"These are they which came OUT of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

The word "heaven" isn't even in the text, neither in the KJV or in the Greek!

[R. Hartono]

35 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, brother,

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

No need to feel sorry, our faith of Salvation is based on Jesus resurrection not on Eschatology understanding.

And didnt you see those 144000 are the tribes of the children of Israel (the Hebrew) where we dont belong. Because christians as spiritual Jews do not belong to any tribe.