Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

On 8/31/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

  As I have acknowledged, on the surface, it can be seen why it might be initially supposed that the "Last Trump" Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 15:52 is the trumpet sounded by the "seventh angel" of Revelation 11:15.  But, this is merely a surface impression that does not give due consideration to what is below the surface. 

And yet it is literally the last trump in a series of trumps related to and associated with the coming of Jesus. The only one. 

The coming of Jesus is  when the gathering occurs. If the gathering occurs at the last trump then there would have to another last trump, that's not the 7th trump, sounded at the gathering, and we probably have to know it is the last trump from some series of trumps.

Is there any evidence of a second series of trumps wherein we would be able to know the last trump is next to sound?

[not an echo]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your question and after statement, I don't understand what you are talking about.  My position remains the same, in accord with the opening posts of my four threads on the subject.  I guess I took it for granted that you would understand that I have always been talking about the spiritual realm activity of the four horsemen.  Again, as I said in what you quoted of me, "if our spiritual realm blinders were removed, we might all be surprised at what we would see---kinda like with Elisha's servant (II Kg. 7:15-17).

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

I know. That allows for the interpretation to be applied anywhere at any time. If it's spiritual it's not manifest on earth. I'm convinced the riders will be manifest and they are not some representation of spiritual activity.

Hello Diaste,

I have to disagree.  What I show allows for the realization that what is manifest stems from spiritual realm activity indeed, and this happens a lot.  The spiritual realm overlap of the unseen into the physical realm of the seen is the "key of knowledge" (cp. Lk. 11:52 with Matt. 23:13).

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

Just to clarify, it has never been my position that Daniel's 70th Week begins with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Rather, it has always been my position that the period of the Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Borrowing from your words, there is zero proof that Daniel's 70th Week has actually begun until after John sees the "little book open" in Revelation 10.  This is the little book of Daniel (cp. Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Quite appropriately---quite Divinely in fact!---the little book of Daniel is seen "open" when the world's stage is completely reset for the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week.  Then, beginning with Revelation 11:1-3, we see the first evidences that Daniel's 70th Week has begun indeed.

I don't see how that's possible given the chronology you present. Ch. 10 follows Ch. 9 and it is said in Ch. 10,

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled"

Then in Ch.9 the 5th and 6th trump have sounded and in Ch. 10 the 7th is about to sound and in fact does in Ch. 11. So the 70th week begins after the 5th and 6th trump when the 7th trump sounds? 

Don't you say the trumps follow the seals? How is the mystery of God finished in Ch. 10 at the same time the trumps are finished sounding and yet the week has not yet begun? 

So the whole week is left to run it's course but only the bowls are left to be poured out?

I'm not sure that I'm really following what you are saying.  To clarify my position a little further with a little different choice of words, the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having begun is in the opening verses of chapter 11, after the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" in chapter 10.  Chapter 11 is still part of the 6th Trumpet period, which does not end until 11:14.  Shown a different way...

Seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 concern the era of NT Christianity, up until the day of the gathering, which happens concurrent with the beginning of the time of the last days' Day of the Lord.

Trumpets 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 concern the resetting of the world's stage for the final fulfilling of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy, and it's ultimate fulfilling, more specifically, the last week (or seven years) of it.  When the world's stage is readied, the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" and the seven years commence.  The first 3-1/2 years are shown in 11:3-14, still during the period of the 6th Trumpet.  With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the mid-point of the seven years is reached, which marks the time of the final show down, or the finishing of "the mystery of God...as He hath declared to His servants the prophets" (Rev. 10:7;  Dan. 12:7).

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth [i.e., meaning the little book of Daniel], let him understand:)

No it doesn't mean the little book. If it does there needs to be some proof. Rev 10 doesn't have any proof this:

But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will roam to and fro, and knowledge will increase.”

 is the same as this:

“Go, take the small scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land.”

If you have actual proof of this beyond a sketchy association please post it.

What do you think is meant by "whoso readeth"?  It is prophecies "spoken by Daniel the prophet" that Christ just mentioned, and this is also reinforced by all the prophetic points of convergence.

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

As I have often said, your (and all others who do it) persistent use of "GT" clouds the understanding.  There have been many times of great tribulation for God's children, there is great tribulation now, and there is going to continue to be great tribulation.  But, one of these days, during the time of Daniel's 70th Week, there is going to be "great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  I speak to this in my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

It clouds your understanding. Messes up the works, a wrench in the gears, brings down the house of cards.

You can't get past the fact the A of D is the immediate lead in to GT as Jesus spoke of in Matt 24. Since there has been no A of D since 167 BC then there can be no GT as Jesus described. 

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)...

For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

For at that time when people flee from the A of D and all it's connotations then there will be GT. 

Show me the A of D that has occurred between the Ascension and today and we can go from there.

I know you cannot. It's why I see the strident denial the A of D is the factor ushering in GT.

Concerning your next to last line ("Show me..."), I have never indicated that there has been one.

Concerning your last line, there is no denial on my part of anything scriptural, but only what you keep saying on your part.  I'm just putting the emphasis where the emphasis belongs.  To wit, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

So again, I'm not skipping anything.  But, I am becoming curious.  It seems that you keep suggesting that Jesus' Olivet Discourse is in a strict chronological order.  Is this your position?

I think I have said it's the outline of the end. There is clearly a chronology. An exact timeline fitting all the pieces unforced is not something I have looked at. What I do see that is perfectly chronological is the events Jesus said would happen in order:

A of D. GT. The Sign. The mourning of the nations. His Arrival. The sounding of the trump and the flight of Angels. The gathering. In that order.

Let me make sure I'm understanding you.  You have given an order and you say, "In that order."  You have "The sounding of the trump" coming after "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign."  I know that by "The sounding of the trump" you are meaning the 7th Trumpet.  Are you then meaning that what you show preceding this trumpet, "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign",  will happen in the period of the 6th Trumpet?

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

You say you "have been saying this all along"?  I'm not really recalling that.  But, if you have been, then I am thinking that you are not seeing what you are saying.

I'm not surprised you don't recall what I say.

"All these things..." are all the things from the disciples question to the statement, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

Jesus' statement that you quote is from Matthew 24:34.  If "all these things" includes, as you say, "all the things from the disciples question to the statement, Truly I tell you...",  what is it that you believe will be "near, even at the doors" (vs. 33) after "all these things"?

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

If I'm understanding your take on the above, how do you have the gathering taking place "in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:44)?  I have some other questions too, but hopefully your answer to this will help me to see a little clearer what your position is.

Yes. "Such an hour..." Which doesn't preclude day, month, year or any and all prophetic events.

In Matthew 24, Jesus says...

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.

Then He says...

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The gist of what Jesus was saying takes in everything.  We aren't going to know the day, month, or year.  Just as if it were a day like today.

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

My position is clarified by the following illustrations.  The first one is of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, rightly divided.  The second is of The Revelation, which substantiates the basic particulars of the division.  For simplicity, the second illustration only shows Matthew's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse...

This is the slow acting, insidious poison of dispensationalism. Let it go. 

I'm supposing that you say this because I use the phrase, "THE CHURCH ERA" in my illustration.  I have spoke to this several times.  When I say this, I'm meaning the time of Christianity since Christ, until now.  Or, the post-Cross era of the Church.  Or, the New Testament era of the Church.  Some call it the Church Age, and I'm alright with that (as I often have myself), but I know that that phrase is particularly frowned upon by you.  What would you call the era since the time of Christ until now?  That's all I mean by the phrase.

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

The disciples' first question was, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" (Matt. 24:3).  Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, "concisely and to the point"?  Or, as I said, "according to their curiosity and concept of things"?

What? Are you looking for a date and time? Minutes of the meeting? A video?

As I have said it's about events, not dates. If you can't see that then you should seek the Spirit of Truth.

You are the one that said Jesus answered them "concisely and to the point."  I just asked you the question, "Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, "concisely and to the point"?  To this you reply, "What? Are you looking for a date and time? Minutes of the meeting? A video?"  No, Diaste, I just asked you the question.  You then make the statement, "As I have said, it's about events, not dates."  I didn't say anything about events or dates.  I just asked you the question.

So, with the air hopefully cleared a little bit, let me ask you the question once more:  "Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, 'concisely and to the point'?  Or, as I said, 'according to their curiosity and concept of things'?"

On 8/16/2022 at 5:09 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/15/2022 at 2:19 PM, not an echo said:

And, what's with your last statement?  That's not a very nice thing to say.

No one likes the truth. As a rule people like the smooth, generous lie. It's why we have Joel Osteens, Paula Whites, Joyce Meyers, Copelands, et al.,  and the same reason the same political vipers get elected cycle after cycle. 

It's why the Jews hated and sought the death of Jesus and the Disciples. 

Pretrib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

I could say something very similar to what you say, but I'm not sure where that would really get us.  See what you think...

No one likes the truth. As a rule people like the smooth, generous lie. It's why we have Joel Osteens, Paula Whites, Joyce Meyers, Copelands, et al.,  and the same reason the same political vipers get elected cycle after cycle. 

It's why the Jews hated and sought the death of Jesus and the Disciples. 

Post trib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have to disagree.  What I show allows for the realization that what is manifest stems from spiritual realm activity indeed, and this happens a lot.  The spiritual realm overlap of the unseen into the physical realm of the seen is the "key of knowledge" (cp. Lk. 11:52 with Matt. 23:13).

Yes. But in this specific case the riders bring the manifestation we can witness. I'm not saying literal white, red, black and green horses with riders gallop about, but the effects will be seen and we will be able to relate those effects to the prophecy unequivocally; for those who are watching anyway. 

Clearly the horses and riders are symbols as much as they are real world causes to great effect.

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Trumpets 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 concern the resetting of the world's stage for the final fulfilling of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy, and it's ultimate fulfilling, more specifically, the last week (or seven years) of it.  When the world's stage is readied, the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" and the seven years commence.  The first 3-1/2 years are shown in 11:3-14, still during the period of the 6th Trumpet.  With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the mid-point of the seven years is reached, which marks the time of the final show down, or the finishing of "the mystery of God...as He hath declared to His servants the prophets" (Rev. 10:7;  Dan. 12:7).

The section in bold is curious. If the 1st 3.5 years is shown there and is the time of the 6th trump, then trumps 1-5 have sounded, in the 1st half of the week. That aligns after a fashion with what I have been saying, and with what is said in Joel where all the green grass is burned up by the midpoint. 

It's not a perfect match of course.

As the week commences and proceeds then the grass is gone, the sea is dead zone, the water is bitter, the light is diminished, locusts torment men and a 200 million 'man' army is laying waste to everything. All before the midpoint and right up to the midpoint?

Aren't you saying all the trumps sound before the week even begins? You said the trumps 'reset' before the last week begins. Then you say the 1st half of the week is still the 6th trump. That would mean the 7th hasn't sounded. But you said before that all the trumps sound in a "resetting of the world's stage". 

You sure?

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

What do you think is meant by "whoso readeth"?  It is prophecies "spoken by Daniel the prophet" that Christ just mentioned, and this is also reinforced by all the prophetic points of convergence.

Doesn't matter. I'm asking for proof the book Daniel sealed is the same as the little book from Rev 10. I don't think it is. I see no proof it is. It seems the book Daniel sealed is the one we read today; "But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end."

The angel, Gabriel I assume, said, "...shut up these words...". One must conclude the words are the ones Gabriel gave to Daniel in the cohesive vision of 9-12. So it's these words that are sealed in this book, the book of Daniel, specifically chapters 9-12.

How is this then the little book of Rev 10?

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Let me make sure I'm understanding you.  You have given an order and you say, "In that order."  You have "The sounding of the trump" coming after "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign." 

SMH. It's not me. I'm not ordering anything. It's what's written. I have said that before and I'm going to keep saying it. I have also said, "I read and repeat." That's all I'm doing.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God," 1 Thess 4

Paul says the above is the coming of Jesus our Lord. WITH an loud command, WITH the archangel, WITH the trumpet.

Below is what Jesus says.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn."

First the sign...

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory"

Then He is seen immediately after...

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call,"

The angels are sent out with the trump.

"and they will gather His elect from the four winds,"

Then the gathering. In that order. Why? Because that's what Jesus said. The same Jesus who is Lord and King over all. The same Jesus who spoke words we twist and ignore to our own purpose. 

I'm going to stick with what Jesus said and let that sword do it's work.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

 I know that by "The sounding of the trump" you are meaning the 7th Trumpet.  Are you then meaning that what you show preceding this trumpet, "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign",  will happen in the period of the 6th Trumpet?

I think the seals are the outline. I see seals as general conditions that prevail throughout with the exception of the 6th and 7th; both of these are near the end. Seals 1-4 are conditions that will exist from beginning to end, or very near to the beginning. The 5th seal has a time limit as well.

I don't see the trumps as creating the same prevailing, lengthy conditions unless so stated. The 6th trump has a specific purpose. Once the purpose has been reached it's over. Could be over immediately before the 7th trump, could be over much earlier, maybe it extends beyond the 7th trump, it's not clear exactly when it begins only that it won't happen before the angels bound at the Euphrates are released and most certainly at a time when repentance is still on the table.

How is it over and what does that look like? Time will tell I suppose.

 

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Jesus' statement that you quote is from Matthew 24:34.  If "all these things" includes, as you say, "all the things from the disciples question to the statement, Truly I tell you...",  what is it that you believe will be "near, even at the doors" (vs. 33) after "all these things"?

If we look at the WHOLE quote it becomes strikingly, abundantly clear.

"32Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

If I have to explain this past the words in bold I think I may have to just be done.

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

In Matthew 24, Jesus says...

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.

Then He says...

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The gist of what Jesus was saying takes in everything.  We aren't going to know the day, month, or year.  Just as if it were a day like today.

The 'day' and 'hour' is all that's stressed here. This says nothing about the year, month or even the week. Nor does this remove a countdown consisting of prophetic events or even the sounding of trumps. You're gap filling requiring there to be elements that are not written. 

I gap fill too. The difference is I know I'm doing it and diligently make note of it. 

So, you seem to think if the trumps were sounding we could simply count the trumps and know the 7th trump, which signifies the gathering, is next and therefore we would accurately ascertain the year, month, week, day and hour. 

How? Is the sounding of the trumps dictated by time and date? Is there a written schedule like May 14, 2032 11:30 AM for the sounding of the 1st trump then a recurring schedule after that for all the trumps?

Where is this rigid schedule of soundings?

There isn't one. Even if we heard 6 trumps sound and knew the 7th was next we could never know when it was going to sound. It isn't like a sporting event where we can watch the clock count down and know the final whistle was seconds from being blown.

And your wrong, just plain wrong. Jesus said, " 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that HE is near,f right at the door."

Since there is a limited time for the end, 7 years, when we see ' all these things,' we will know it's soon. If 6 years of the end have passed and the 7th trump has not sounded we would know it's in the 7th year which it will sound. 

Since there is a time after the 7th trump has sounded for the outpouring of wrath, of which there at least a 5 month period of time it's possible to think the 7th trump would sound in the 6th year of the end. So yeah. We are only blind to the day and hour, as it is written.

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm supposing that you say this because I use the phrase, "THE CHURCH ERA" in my illustration.  I have spoke to this several times.  When I say this, I'm meaning the time of Christianity since Christ, until now.  Or, the post-Cross era of the Church.  Or, the New Testament era of the Church.  Some call it the Church Age, and I'm alright with that (as I often have myself), but I know that that phrase is particularly frowned upon by you.  What would you call the era since the time of Christ until now?  That's all I mean by the phrase.

The problem with this sort of thing is it's predicated on the idea Christ wasn't around before being born of a virgin. Like there was no church of Jesus Christ followers before the 1st century.

Jesus made all things. So He's preexistent.[immense power too]

Jesus is God in physical form. Who walked and talked with Adam and Eve? Who met with Abraham in the plain of Mamre?

"Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

This would mean anyone saved from any time is saved by Jesus Christ, including the OT saints. Logically then any saved in the OT must have confessed Jesus and followed Him.

"I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that ROCK was CHRIST."

This is the church of Christ. Formed in the day of Abraham, purified in the Exodus, Always Jesus Christ from the beginning to the end. Hidden in those days, revealed to us now, but ever the same. 

There is no church age; there is one God, one Jesus Christ and one congregation in the Spirit; which congregation began with Abraham. Anything else is prideful deification of a organization, imo.

A modern church age is a fantasy. Even if you don't ascribe the same definition you're still acknowledging the concept. 

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

You are the one that said Jesus answered them "concisely and to the point."  I just asked you the question, "Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, "concisely and to the point"?  To this you reply, "What? Are you looking for a date and time? Minutes of the meeting? A video?"  No, Diaste, I just asked you the question.  You then make the statement, "As I have said, it's about events, not dates."  I didn't say anything about events or dates.  I just asked you the question.

So, with the air hopefully cleared a little bit, let me ask you the question once more:  "Where is it that Jesus answered their first question, as you said, 'concisely and to the point'?  Or, as I said, 'according to their curiosity and concept of things'?"

The entire discourse is the answer to all three questions. For such a broad subject the answer is short. Too short. It leaves dozens of gaps in the narrative. 

Maybe you didn't say anything about times and dates or minutes; the implication is a specific word or phrase must exist to prove it's 'concise and topical' and doesn't range or stray from the questions asked.

The disciples didn't ask, "What will it be like when you're gone till the time you return?" Which must be the case if one thinks the Olivet Discourse covers 2000 years. 

I guess if you don't see it I can't help you see it. It's fine. We'll know soon enough. 

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

 Or, as I said, 'according to their curiosity and concept of things'?"

So, did you poll the disciples to find out what mindset they were in? You know it was idle curiosity as opposed to fact finding?

Based on the questions they were fact finding.

"Say Jesus, the game's about to start, we were curious, what's it going to be like?", said the disciples not.

And what difference does their concept make? They were talking to a God that cannot lie. His concepts are paramount. The creature isn't higher than the creator. Unless one is a dispensational, replacement, pretrib, white, western member of the Church age, of course. 

Sorry, not sorry.

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

I could say something very similar to what you say, but I'm not sure where that would really get us.  See what you think...

No one likes the truth. As a rule people like the smooth, generous lie. It's why we have Joel Osteens, Paula Whites, Joyce Meyers, Copelands, et al.,  and the same reason the same political vipers get elected cycle after cycle. 

It's why the Jews hated and sought the death of Jesus and the Disciples. 

Post trib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

Except they are all pretrib. 

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Post trib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

What? Wow, if anything is a smooth lie, THIS is it!

[not an echo]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, not an echo said:

Like with what comes after the 7th Seal Diaste, you are in denial over the obvious.  The Scripture I referenced above---I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3---reads thus, without the verse and chapter divisions...

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is not to mention the other prophetic puzzle pieces that converge with the 6th Seal, all of which support my position on the above and what I have so often showed.

I'm not in denial. I know the gathering comes at the DOTL. What I dispute is the timeline you present, not the facts of the 2nd coming nor the gathering or when each occur in relation to other events.

Hello Diaste,

Taking into consideration what you dispute, what I have spoke to in this thread, what I have shown, and what I see as I look ahead, I am feeling that it would perhaps be of the most help if I again give some overall thoughts concerning my timeline position---with an emphasis on where the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet factor in and occur in relation to other events.  Not only is the relation of these two trumpets the subject of this thread, it seems apparent that where we are at on these has become a major element on where we will be at on our timelines.

I think of the ole saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."  For me, any supposed beauty of a Trump of God/Last Trump = 7th Trumpet position is too superficial to give much credence to, when what is below the surface is seen.  Concerning the question before us,

ON THE SURFACE

it may look like the Last Trump/Trump of God equals the 7th Trumpet.

BELOW THE SURFACE

we find something else, when the trumpet prophecies are fit into The Revelation's prophetic grid.

What do I mean?  Part of my position is that The Revelation is a grid into which all end prophecies will fit and find their order.  Consider my thread, The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251871-the-revelation-is-our-god-given-prophetic-grid/).  Following is an example narrative with every chapter of The Revelation spoken to and the trumpets of our concern appropriately placed:

In the opening verses of The Revelation, John was shown things concerning the future that were "at hand" to begin to take place.  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and of his being told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he tells of his invitation to come up to Heaven, of his suddenly being there "in the spirit,"  and of his seeing God on His throne (Rev. 4).  He then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand that was sealed with seven seals, and of the ceremony he witnessed, in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) was given charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what John was told was about to start taking place related to the Lamb's opening of the seals of this mysterious book.  The seals of this book pertain to the New Testament era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will begin (Rev. 6-7).  Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the spiritual realm liberties that he (Satan) was given to continue the plying of his craft into and throughout the NT Christian era.  These liberties have ever since been exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen, and they have been riding down through the corridors of history, even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of history since.  The 5th Seal reveals the last days' cry for justice of those martyred during these centuries and can easily have already been opened as well.  Whereas the 6th Seal is yet to be opened, Christ may open it at any time.  When He does, the signs concerning the sun and the moon, connected scripturally with the beginning of the Day of the Lord, will be fulfilled.  Just preceding, but concurrent with this, Christ will return for the Church with "A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET" (i.e., THE TRUMP OF GOD/THE LAST TRUMP) and make a powerful and glorious "sign" appearance, high in the sky over Israel---all in preparation for the upcoming fulfilling of the last, or 70th week of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy.  Because there is no scriptural injunction otherwise, the day that the 6th Seal is opened, Christ can also open the 7th Seal (Rev. 8).  This obviously suggests that He will then open the cover of the Seven Sealed Book, which could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD---as the period of the Day of the Lord begins this same day.  With the sounding of the first four trumpets, the "third part" of the earth (which easily shapes up to be our Western Hemisphere) will be taken out of the picture in further preparation---like a stage reset---for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  In the time frame of the 5th and 6th trumpets (Rev. 9), the remainder of the world's stage will be readied for this last seven years to take place.  Very fittingly, when everything is readied, the little book of Daniel is seen open (Rev. 10).  We then see the first evidences that the Antichrist has confirmed his infamous seven year covenant with Israel, meaning the period of Daniel's 70th Week has begun.  With the sounding of THE SEVENTH TRUMPET, the period of the 70th Week showdown between Christ and the satanic trinity will be heralded (Rev. 11).  This period---the last 3-1/2 years---is shown to continue (Rev. 12-18) until Christ's return as the King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19), at which time "every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him:  and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him."  The binding of Satan for a thousand years, Christ's Millennial Reign, and the Last Judgment will complete the period of the Day of the Lord (Rev. 20).  After this, time as we know it, and this world as we know it, will give way to eternity and what God has for all of His saved in the Happily Ever After (Rev. 21-22).

Following is one of my charts, which illustrates the basics of the above narrative.  For this illustration, I have also shown where the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet are sounded...

 

So Diaste, on the surface, I can see what you mean.   I hope that you can see what I mean when we look below the surface.

Of course, there is much more below the surface than what I show above, as I have shown throughout the course of this thread.  And, I will show more in my next post...

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

  On 8/18/2022 at 4:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, not an echo said:

Like with what comes after the 7th Seal Diaste, you are in denial over the obvious.  The Scripture I referenced above---I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3---reads thus, without the verse and chapter divisions...

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is not to mention the other prophetic puzzle pieces that converge with the 6th Seal, all of which support my position on the above and what I have so often showed.

I'm not in denial. I know the gathering comes at the DOTL. What I dispute is the timeline you present, not the facts of the 2nd coming nor the gathering or when each occur in relation to other events.

Continuing further from where I left off in my previous post...

ON THE SURFACE

it may look like the Last Trump/Trump of God equals the 7th Trumpet.

BELOW THE SURFACE

we see that the 7th Trumpet concerns something far different than the Last Trump/Trump of God.

According to the evidence of Scripture, the 7th Trumpet heralds the period in which the beginning of the last half of Daniel's 70th Week will occur, and much more.  Because of what John records in the overview of this period (Rev. 11:15-19), we can see that it will continue until "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18), which corresponds to the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  The capstone of the last half of Daniel's 70th Week will be Christ's return as the King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon and to reign upon this earth for 1000 years.  It is at this time that the fullness of what Daniel was told that the "seventy weeks" would bring to pass will become the reality, as expressed in Daniel 9...

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Concerning the question of this thread, it is important to note---or to notice---that if the 7th Trumpet is that "great sound of a trumpet" that Christ speaks of in Matthew 24:31 (as you believe), it is "with" this trumpet that the angels are sent to "gather together His elect from the four winds..."  According to Revelation chapters 12-20---which expound the period that is heralded by the 7th Trumpet---I can't see your take on this fitting your belief that the gathering will happen concurrent with Christ's Second Advent, as Christ's Second Advent will not take place for 3-1/2 more years.  Following is an outline of this section of The Revelation.  The "OVERLAPS" I show are just that, a pattern that runs from chapter 11 (where the overview is given) through chapter 20.

DETAILS OF THE PERIOD HERALDED BY THE SEVENTH TRUMPET

(REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's activity against Israel (vs.1/ Gen. 37:9-11) leading up to this time (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The war in the heavenlies resulting in Satan being cast down unto the earth (vss. 7-9)

   C.  Satan's activity against Israel / Beginning of last half of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 10-17)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 3 with 17:3);  (vs. 10 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:14)

(REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's rise in the political realm as the beast of his revived Babylon empire (vss. 1-10)

   B.  Satan's rise in the religious realm as the false prophet of his harlot church (vss. 11-14)

   C.  Satan's despotic rule through the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet (vss. 15-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 1 with 12:3);  (vss. 1-3ff with 17:7-12ff);  (vs. 7 with 12:11)

(REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of the 144,000 saints in Heaven, and a last call for world to turn to God (vss. 1-7)

   B.  The doom of all who worship the beast / The reaping of the wicked, and God's wrath (vss. 8-20)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 7 with 11:18);  (vs. 8 with 16:19 and 18:2ff)

(REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in Heaven, and their song (vss. 1-4)

   B.  Preparation for the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath (vss. 5-8)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 2 with 13:15, 14:9-13, and 20:4);  (vss. 5-8 with 11:18 and 16:1-21)

(REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED

   A.  Angels instructed to pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth (vs. 1)

   B.  The results of the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth (vss. 2-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 14-16 with 19:19);  (vss. 17-21 with 11:18-19);  (vs. 19 with 14:7-8, 20)

(REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE DISCLOSED

   A.  John's seeing of the woman upon the scarlet beast (red dragon), and his wonder (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The mystery surrounding the woman and the beast explained, and her fate (vss. 7-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 8 with 13:3-4, 8);  (vs. 14 with 19:11-14ff)

(REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT DISCLOSED

   A.  The fall of Babylon the great, and the lament of those who were loyal to it (vss. 1-19)

   B.  The call to rejoice over the fall of Babylon / The finality of its destruction (vss. 20-24)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 5 with 16:19);  (vs. 8 with 16:17-21);  (vss. 10, 17, and 19 with 14:7-8)

(REV. 19)---THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of rejoicing in preparation for Christ's return / The Second Coming of Christ (vss. 1-16)

   B.  The Battle of Armageddon, and the doom of the beast and the false prophet (vss. 17-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 1-6 with 11:15-17);  (vs. 15ff with 14:17-20)

(REV. 20)---CHRIST'S REIGN AND LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED

   A.  The binding of Satan, Christ's thousand year reign, and Satan's ultimate doom (vss. 1-10) 

   B.  The "Great White Throne Judgment" and ultimate doom of the lost (vss. 11-15)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 4-6 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:18)

So again, Diaste, on the surface, I can see what you mean.  And again, I hope that you can see what I mean when we look below the surface.

Also, there still remains more below the surface than what I have shown in this or my previous post, or elsewhere in the course of this thread.  But next, I need to do a little more catching up, or I ain't never gonna get caught up!  Probably won't anyway...