Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[iamlamad]

On 4/16/2022 at 1:19 AM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Well, I've finally made it back to your last post.  Like I had said above, "...I will when I can"!

I certainly agree that "the trumpets are judgments" and that the entire 70th Week is "clearly marked", but I don't quite see it in accord with what you said you "instantly knew".

In The Revelation, nothing is clearly said about Daniel's 70th Week until after John sees the "little book open" in chapter 10 (vs. 2), which according to what we find in Daniel, would be the book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Interestingly and unsurprisingly, it is just after John digests this little book (Rev. 10:8-10) that he records for us what we find in the opening three verses of chapter 11...

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Beginning with verse one, just because the "temple of God" is here mentioned and there is "worship" going on, this does not mean it is God who is being worshiped.  Consider afresh Paul's words from II Thessalonians 2...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christ's Second Coming/KJV vss. 2 & 8) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (aka the "abomination of desolation" or Antichrist);

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And, consider afresh Jesus' words from Matthew 24...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth---meaning the book of Daniel---let him understand:)

Continuing, in the book of Daniel we find the following, which connects hard with the two 3-1/2 year periods John writes of in Revelation 11:2-3.  Consider from chapter 9...

27 And he (the Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (seven years): and in the midst of the week (after 3-1/2 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Back to Revelation 11:2-3, it is easy to see a continuation of thought after the 3-1/2 year period mentioned in verse three.  This continuation of thought continues through verse 13, and we can know that this 3-1/2 year period will at this time be over by what John writes in the next verse...

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

And indeed, the third woe does come quickly.  When the seventh angel sounds, we find an overview of what this trumpet heralds.  This overview is expounded in chapters 12-20, and spells out what is in store for all who still remain upon the earth at that time, not to mention the unsaved, Satan, and his cohorts.  Especially noteworthy are three mentions of that other 3-1/2 year period (12:6, 14;  13:5) that John wrote of in 11:2, indicating that this is in reference to the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week (cp. Lk. 21:20-22).  Connected with this same time, Jesus said this in Matthew 24:

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Further, Daniel was told the following concerning the seventy weeks.  From Daniel 9...

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, TO finish the transgression, and TO make an end of sins, and TO make reconciliation for iniquity, and TO bring in everlasting righteousness, and TO seal up the vision and prophecy, and TO anoint the Most Holy.

The last day of Daniel's 70th Week will be the day of Christ's Second Coming.  It is after this that what follows the TO's of Daniel 9:24 will be brought to fulfillment---during Christ's Millennial Reign and beyond.

I don't quite see it in accord with what you said you "instantly knew".

God speaks to His children in many different ways. Many times He has spoken to me in what sounds like an audible voice. But in this case, it was just a "download." That is how I "suddenly knew." God had sent me to find, first the midpoint "clearly marked," then the entire 70th week.  It was when He said I could find the entire week "clearly marked" that He downloaded  - without words - the fact that He had marked the beginning and ending of the week with the same marked He used to mark the midpoint.

John does not come out and tell us that the week will begin with the 7th seal. However, with the revelation knowledge I have received, I know that is the beginning of the week. My guess is, the "confirming" of a covenant will be done in secret, or at least not made into news. Few will know it happened. I guess this because Jesus skipped over the start of the week in His endtime discourse and John did not see it in a vision or mention it. 

Again, John does not tell us that the book is now opened at the opening of the 7th seal, but I think we are supposed to understand that the book gets opened then, and what comes next (Revelation 8:2 and beyond) is written inside the book. It is my guess that the entire 70th week is written inside the book. Satan never thought anyone could escape from hell, rise from the dead, and become worthy to open the seals, so he guessed he could and would remain the god of this world forever.

He was WRONG! Jesus rose from the dead, escaped out of hell, took the keys to death and hell with Him, and ascended back to His body. He shortly after ascended into heaven, took the book, and began opening the seals.

AGain it is my guess that Satan demanded of God that this book be sealed, thinking no one would ever qualify to open the seals.

We can determine where the exact midpoint is (or get very close) through study. Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in 12:6. That verse then, would be only seconds after the division point of the week. If we back up looking for the abomination - John was not shown that so did not write it. But if we back up from 12:6 looking for a MARKER, we find the 7th trumpet. That is a marker that is used three times: 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial in John's narrative. 

You can either believe God spoke to me and believe what He said, or you can doubt it. The question is, does what He spoke to me fit what is written? I think it does.

[iamlamad]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:05 PM, Uriah said:

Once again I'd say, the Sixth seal coincides with the 7th Trump, the last vial and Rev 20. they all show the END. For example, the sky rolls up and departs (not coming back). what will take its place? The New Heaven, of course. Simultaneously the mountains and islands flee. (repeated later in Revelation-re told that is, not happening twice). We're seeing the planetary changes making the New Earth befor our eyes -on the page! (see next reply please...wouldn't fit here)

If the trumpets are written inside the book as I believe they are, what you suggest is impossible: ALL the seals must be opened before the book can be opened to reveal the seven angels receiving their respective trumpets.

1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

[iamlamad]

On 4/15/2022 at 2:09 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Uriah,

As I've been having to say a lot, I've been trying to do some catching up.  My apologies for not being more punctual.  Hopefully the ole saying will suffice, "Better late than never."

Concerning your first paragraph, I'm not seeing this as you say.  Of course, it is huge what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, but not nearly as huge as what happens after Christ's Reign (Rev. 20:11;  21:1).

Concerning your second paragraph, my understanding is that in Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus will be coming with His Bride (19:14;  Jude 14).  I see Him coming for Her with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17;  Matt. 24:29-31;  I Thess. 4:16-5:3).

...

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Concerning your second paragraph, my understanding is that in Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus will be coming with His Bride (19:14;  Jude 14).

So far, very good.

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I see Him coming for Her with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17;

This is a tangent far from what the 6th seal is. John shows us the 6th seal is the start of the Day of the Lord, NOT Jesus coming for Armageddon. 

Perhaps this will help: 

ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit some hypothesis is immediately suspect and will certainly be proven wrong.

This theory must WARP Revelation so that chapter 19 happens with an event in chapter 6. This is not in any possible way the intent of the Author.

Can you explain any possible connection between Rev. 19 and The 6th seal?

[iamlamad]

On 4/15/2022 at 2:09 PM, not an echo said:

...

As for the 7th Trumpet, what you reference in your first paragraph is from the overview of the period that the 7th Trumpet heralds (Rev. 11:15-18).  This period is expounded in Revelation 12-20, as I have outlined below.  The "OVERLAPS" I show are just that, a pattern that runs from chapter 11 (where the overview is given) through chapter 20.  Consider the opening post of my thread on The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/) for more on this and some helpful illustrations...

DETAILS OF THE PERIOD HERALDED BY THE SEVENTH TRUMPET

(REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's activity against Israel (vs.1/ Gen. 37:9-11) leading up to this time (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The war in the heavenlies resulting in Satan being cast down unto the earth (vss. 7-9)

   C.  Satan's activity against Israel / Beginning of last half of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 10-17)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 3 with 17:3);  (vs. 10 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:14)

(REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's rise in the political realm as the beast of his revived Babylon empire (vss. 1-10)

   B.  Satan's rise in the religious realm as the false prophet of his harlot church (vss. 11-14)

   C.  Satan's despotic rule through the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet (vss. 15-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 1 with 12:3);  (vss. 1-3ff with 17:7-12ff);  (vs. 7 with 12:11)

(REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of the 144,000 saints in Heaven, and a last call for world to turn to God (vss. 1-7)

   B.  The doom of all who worship the beast / The reaping of the wicked, and God's wrath (vss. 8-20)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 7 with 11:18);  (vs. 8 with 16:19 and 18:2ff)

(REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in Heaven, and their song (vss. 1-4)

   B.  Preparation for the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath (vss. 5-8)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 2 with 13:15, 14:9-13, and 20:4);  (vss. 5-8 with 11:18 and 16:1-21)

(REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED

   A.  Angels instructed to pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth (vs. 1)

   B.  The results of the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth (vss. 2-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 14-16 with 19:19);  (vss. 17-21 with 11:18-19);  (vs. 19 with 14:7-8, 20)

(REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE DISCLOSED

   A.  John's seeing of the woman upon the scarlet beast (red dragon), and his wonder (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The mystery surrounding the woman and the beast explained, and her fate (vss. 7-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 8 with 13:3-4, 8);  (vs. 14 with 19:11-14ff)

(REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT DISCLOSED

   A.  The fall of Babylon the great, and the lament of those who were loyal to it (vss. 1-19)

   B.  The call to rejoice over the fall of Babylon / The finality of its destruction (vss. 20-24)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 5 with 16:19);  (vs. 8 with 16:17-21);  (vss. 10, 17, and 19 with 14:7-8)

(REV. 19)---THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of rejoicing in preparation for Christ's return / The Second Coming of Christ (vss. 1-16)

   B.  The Battle of Armageddon, and the doom of the beast and the false prophet (vss. 17-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 1-6 with 11:15-17);  (vs. 15ff with 14:17-20)

(REV. 20)---CHRIST'S REIGN AND LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED

   A.  The binding of Satan, Christ's thousand year reign, and Satan's ultimate doom (vss. 1-10) 

   B.  The "Great White Throne Judgment" and ultimate doom of the lost (vss. 11-15)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 4-6 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:18)

====================

Concerning your last paragraph, it is "the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in Heaven" (Rev. 15:5) that "no man was able to enter...till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled" (Rev. 15:8).  There's much more in Heaven than this temple.

Sorry, but "OVERLAPS" immediately shows a lack of understanding of John's narrative in Revelation. It is human reasoning gone off on a tangent.

Why not just leave Revelation as written and form a theory of the end as Revelation is written? I submit, there is no need to rearrange Revelation (or imagine overlaps) for John takes us on a very straight path through some history and then through the future. Sorry, my friend, but there are no real "overlaps." They may exist in someone's imagination.

[iamlamad]

On 3/23/2021 at 8:10 PM, not an echo said:

I was going to write the following in response to a post on another thread, but I didn't want to be a party to possibly derailing a thread that wasn't mine.  Moreover, I certainly believe that this subject deserves a thread all it's own. 

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet?  It is quite understandable how that it could be said that the 7th Trumpet is at least a last trumpet, for it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  It is also quite understandable how that one might put forth that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, for again, it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  But, is this the Trump of God, or THE LAST Trump?

Is this thread about splitting hairs?  If I didn't know much about the Bible, I would think so!  But, there are solid scriptural reasons to consider this question.  For example, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He speaks of a trumpet that is commonly accepted as being the Trump of God, or the Last Trump.  In Matthew 24, He says:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in verse 31 happens during an event that He describes in verses 29-31, an event that certainly appears to find its fulfillment in connection with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12-7:17.  Further, this "great sound of a trumpet" is commonly accepted to be the Trump of God, or THE Last Trump.  All of this then poses a relevant question:  If the event Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 finds its fulfillment in connection with the the opening of the 6th Seal, how can the 7th Trumpet spoken of much later in Revelation 11:15 be the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of, or the Trump of God?  My answer:  It isn't---and the reasoning is quite logical.  Let me explain, and I hope you will suffer me to reminisce a little...

When I was in high school (back in the 70's), I loved to go with my friend and his family to the dirt track races.  Every weekend we would go, and of course, we had our favorite race car drivers.  Our biggest favorite was Jessie Ladd, #77.  He won a lot , but not always .  Man, them races were so close, we often didn't know who was going to be the winner, most times, not even up to the last lap.  Often, even in turn four, it would be neck and neck and we wouldn't know the winner till they actually crossed the finish line.  Those were the days, over 45 years ago!

I've got to tell you that when Jessie won the race, that was a big, big night for us!   And on Monday (if school was still in), we would tell our buddies that Jessie won the main Saturday night.  We could even talk smack about how he was the one who got to drive the last lap.  Someone who had never been to the races might remark, "Well, duh, don't everyone get to drive the last lap?"  Of course, the answer would be that the last lap we were talking about was the Victory Lap.  What's that?  That's where the winning driver pulls up in front of the flagger's stand and gets presented with the checkered flag.  The winner would then drive slowly around the track, waving that flag, his fans cheering him on (I just got a tear in my eye, reminiscing---seriously).

I've shared all the foregoing to say this:  At the races, there was always the last lap of the race, which was one in a series, AND, there was always the Victory Lap.  Always.  You know, it goes without saying that there was a lot of difference in the last lap of the race and the Victory Lap.  On the nights that Jessie won, the Victory Lap was Jessie's Lap.  That was THE LAST LAP.  It was in a category all by itself.

I submit that the Trump of God---THE LAST TRUMP---is in a category all by itself.  That Last Trump is not the last in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.  You know, I may be wrong about it.  But, with this understanding, a lot of prophetic puzzle pieces sure come together nicely for me---like by design.

This thread is part of A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Here's a link to that master thread, which also shows the other threads I have started relating to the subject of my different interpretation, or view (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I wish I had the time to start---and keep up with---all the threads that I have had on my mind that relate to my view.  For now, it is little by little, the best I can, until the Lord sees fit differently.  With Christian charity (I Cor. 13:4-7), not an echo

How about Paul's "last trump" is both the long trumpet blast that ends the Feast of Trumpets, and also ends up being the "last trump" of the church age?

[iamlamad]

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

...

Listen, in all seriousness, I grew up under the tutelage of the common pre-trib view.  I have often heard it's scholars state that Christ's Olivet Discourse does not pertain to the era of the Church.  But, I always struggled with this and finally came to a place that I just have to disagree.  Now, I promise not to feel too hard at you for disagreeing with me, if you won't feel too hard at me for disagreeing with you.  Well, I ain't gonna feel too hard at you anyway, unless you start acting all uppity cause you got a zero turn and I don't.

Can you point to specific verses that you believe are pointed to the Gentile church of today?

While you are looking, I will point to verse 15 that is at the division point of the 70th week: the abomination of desolation Jesus spoke of. And WHO is the 70th week for and about? It is also called the time of "Jacob's Trouble." That should be enough for all to know it is pointed to the Jews, not to the Gentile church of today.

However, all that said, the Jews were given blindness in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. And while we are in the days of the Gentile church, the Jews have had to wait for their final week. So when Jesus mentioned earthquakes, pestilences, wars, rumors of wars and said, "the end is not yet" He was speaking of the church age indirectly.

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If the trumpets are written inside the book as I believe they are, what you suggest is impossible: ALL the seals must be opened before the book can be opened to reveal the seven angels receiving their respective trumpets.

Actually, a description of scenarios are given one at a time as things are opened one at a time. Same for trumpets/ vials.

Mountains and islands shown twice, Euphrates twice etc.

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Actually, a description of scenarios are given one at a time as things are opened one at a time. Same for trumpets/ vials.

Mountains and islands shown twice, Euphrates twice etc.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;...14  and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This is a huge earthquake, but it only moves mountains. Just as a comparison, the big earthquake that caused the terrible tsunamis in Japan a few years ago moved the axis of the earth (and so also moved every mountain) a few inches.

 

Rev. 16:20  And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

 

This is the world's worst every earthquake, over 7 years after the other one, and this one shakes the mountains down into the earth and are no more. 

 

I believe the 6th seal earthquake will be caused when God raises the dead in Christ from the dead. This last earthquake that shakes the mountains down will probably be caused when God raises all the righteous from before the flood.

Things may be written twice, but only if some event happens twice - such as earthquake. The point is, nothing—no event—written in chapter 16 also happens in some previous chapter. It is a different earthquake.

[The Light]

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence (beginning with "and neither..."), in light of all the relevant scriptures and what has characterized 20 centuries of history, my understanding brings all the prophetic puzzle pieces together for me in a way that fits much better than this.  But then, I may be a little partial to my understanding.  But then again, I understand more of what I am understanding than I do of what you are understanding, if you understand. 

I do understand. I also understand that it is easier for me to understand your understanding as I used to believe similar. I now see why these things cannot be correct, because I understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and I understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Once you understand these things, everything falls into place perfectly. 

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the way you expressed your reply, I would first like to re-clarify that I do not see what Jesus said (e.g., Matt. 24:4-14) as having been fulfilled, but "as having been fulfilled and as being fulfilled even now in our day."

I know you think that, as I used to also, until I understood that the seals are the 70th week of Daniel. What Jesus tells us in Matt 24 is exactly what John tell us in Rev 6. Those seals are not open yet. Listen, when the black horse comes to pass there will be no food around that is easily obtained. Can't you see the beginnings of this famine on the world now. Suddenly there are empty shelves and prices of everything is skyrocketing. This is all a plan, just like the plan-demic. Don't you see the beginning of pestilence. When you see these things begin to come to pass look up. Your redemption draws nigh.

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the stones of the temple, I know there is controversy concerning the Wailing Wall and if these stones were actually a part of the temple.  But, Jesus says more about this than what He says in any of the accounts of His Olivet Discourse.  Consider afresh from Luke 19...

41 And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

In light of what Jesus says here, perhaps all the stones actually considered to be temple stones were  thrown down.  I cannot say what the fact of the matter is on this.  But, all the stones of "the city" have not yet been, for the Wailing Wall is still standing---something that has engaged the thinking of the both of us.

Now, if the disciples took what Jesus said in Matthew 24:2 concerning the temple and "one stone upon another" as connecting with "the end of the world" (Matt. 24:3), as their questioning indicates, this is something that we need to consider---especially if it was not.  I mean, did what Jesus say concerning the temple stones connect with the "end of the world" or with what happened in 70 A.D.?  Personally, I have no real problem accepting that what He told His disciples did indeed connect somewhat with what happened in 70 A.D., but there was to be much more.  And He tells them about it.  Further, I believe we both agree that before all this thing is done, there won't be a single stone of even the Wailing Wall that will be left "upon another" (Lk. 19:44).

We can tell the Temple stones have not be thrown down with these verses.

Luke 21

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So, if the Temple stones have already been thrown down, what was the sign when these things happened?

 

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

Again, according to my understanding of Scripture, the Church will be on Earth until the 6th Seal is opened. 

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. The Church is the kings and priests of Rev 5. Also the 24 elders have crowns in Rev 4. You cannot receive rewards until a resurrection has occurred and we know that the dead in Christ (the dead of the Church) rise first.

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

The first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century, and the four horsemen---Satan's henchmen---have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since, insatiably doing what they are bent on doing. 

The seals are not opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Dan 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 70th week of Daniel has nothing to do with the Church. The Church will already be in heaven before the 70th week, the seals, can begin. This is the time of Jacobs trouble. God will regraft the Jews back to the olive tree when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in with the pre 70th week rapture. Part of the Jews cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah UNTIL the Church is raptured.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

The 5th Seal may be opened now, and I believe it is.  For me, there are way too many evidences that Daniel's 70th Week will not begin until after Revelation 10, as evidenced in the first verse of chapter 11 (cp. Matt. 24:15 and II Thess. 2:3-4).

The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. They are not open. When the black horse rides whoever is here will be working all day for just the food to eat. 

Recently 23 food processing plants have been closed many with weird circumstances. Two were hit by plane. What are the chances of that? The fifth largest food producer is Ukraine who is no longer producing. The United States, a leading food producer is in a drought in some of the best areas for grain. Brazil another large producer is having trouble getting fertilizer which comes from Russia. 

Just use common sense. When those seals are opened, there will not be food to be had. 

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

IMHO, He's talking to the pillars of His Church about what they and subsequent generations of His followers are going to face until the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which, in harmony with The Revelation, will happen in the time between what Jesus says in Matthew 24:14 and 24:15.  I refer to this event as the Intersecting Event of Christ's Sign Appearance.

The way you have worded your first sentence, I would agree, but I don't believe you are seeing this as I do.  I take "the tribulation" to be that that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:4-14, or what will happen before the Day of the Lord will begin (i.e., "and then shall the end come"/vs. 14).  I believe you take "the tribulation" to be Daniel's 70th Week.  Look again at the illustration I gave with my previous reply.  What I refer to as the Intersecting Event of Christ's Sign Appearance happens with the opening of the 6th Seal---immediately after "the tribulation" brought upon the Church by Satan through his four henchmen (Matt. 24:4-14;  Rev. 6:1-11/first five seals) and immediately before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, of which Daniel's 70th Week (Matt. 24:15-28;  Rev. 11:1-19:21) is a part.

The Church will not be in the tribulation. They are in heaven before the seals are opened. See Rev 4 and 5. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

Not sure how you see what you say to negate what I said.

I'm kinda confused by what you are saying.  It seems like you are saying that Jesus comes at the end of Daniel's 70th Week, THEN the wrath of God begins, THEN Jesus returns with His armies.  Just trying to get a little better handle on exactly what you are saying.

I made a mistake when I said the 70th week is over and then the wrath of God begins.  I meant that the Tribulation is over and then the wrath of God begins.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

On 4/14/2022 at 12:51 PM, not an echo said:

 

 

[not an echo]

Hello Diaste,

As I've done some reviewing and considering of our posts and replies, we have been back and forth (and back and forth ) on several things.  This is going to happen and is understandable, but I don't want to be overly repetitious.  However, I can tell by some of your responses that I may need to comment or clarify further, and it is to those responses that I want to dwell.  Hopefully this will be helpful, at least to us better understanding each other and, of course, the truth of the matter.

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

Now, we know that Jesus said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" and this is not going to be changing.  But, I want you to think about Jesus' words for a minute from the perspective of my understanding, so that you can at least begin to see where I am coming from.

I'm not going to give a lot of weight to 'perspectives' aside from the Spirit.

I would not ask or encourage anyone "to give a lot of weight to 'perspectives' aside from the Spirit."  But, one's perspective does hold relevance.  My perspective changed somewhat when I went from having been a teenager to being the parent of one.  These days, I can appreciate school bus drivers a little more, now that my perspective is that of a driver rather than a rider.  If there is more than one witness to a crime or accident, all witnesses are sought out, for the perspective of each can be of importance.

Earlier, in the same post of yours from which I copied the above quotes, I, then you, had said the following:

Me---"Can we agree that it should not surprise us to find that Jesus' Olivet Discourse holds teachings that can help us to better understand The Revelation and that The Revelation holds teachings that can help us to better understand Jesus' Olivet Discourse?"

You---"Maybe. I don't know if there is some mutual revelation between the two or not. Could be, I have not really considered that." (emphasis mine)

Does it not seem reasonable to you that if I have really considered what you haven't, that this might result in my having a little different perspective on things?  This is not to mention how Christ's Spirit works when such is considered, or even leads in such being considered (John 8:31-32;  16:13).

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

According to my understanding, if the Church were gathered today, the last days' Day of the Lord judgment would commence on this same day.  This would mean that the tribulation that the Church has so long been subjected to would give way to that of the Day of the Lord---a whole other category of tribulation.  Dovetailing this, I see the gathering of the Church as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, which we know joins hard with the beginning of the Day of the Lord as well.  Further, with Daniel's 70th Week happening inside of the period of the Day of the Lord, this certainly makes for that time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

You are consistent.  From Matthew 24:

"

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Only when the A of D is seen standing in the holy place will this particular " unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." great tribulation occur. This is before:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Only does the Son of Man appear now, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days:" This is the 6th seal when the day of the Lord begins. GT is before and outside the DOTL.

Concerning your first three words ("You are consistent."), is this what you meant to say?

Of the rest of your reply as a whole, you summed up your position with this:  "GT is before and outside the DOTL."  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that at the end of "GT" the first five seals will have been opened (and that this will be known by how bad things get)---AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS---the first six trumpets will have been sounded (and all that happens with them).  If so, and the DOTL does not happen until after this, how will it be that the scoffers at such a time will be able to say, "Where is the promise of His coming?  for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (II Pet. 3:4)?  Or, as Jesus said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came..." (Matt. 24:36-39).  Or, "for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

Is there any other Scripture that factors into the equation?  Yes there is.  When I look at what John wrote of in The Revelation and note the parallels that can be made between the opening section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse (the part I can relate to/e.g., Matt. 24:4-14) and the first five seals (Rev. 6:1-11), this gives me pause.  Then, when I consider the middle section of Jesus' discourse (the part I can't relate to/e.g., Matt. 24:15-28) and what John wrote beginning in Revelation 11:1-3, this gives me further pause.  Then, when I see what Jesus begins to say in the last section of His discourse (beginning with Matt. 24:29-31) and what John says concerning the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17), this really gives me pause.

Many agree that what Jesus begins to say in the last section of His discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:29-31) connects with the 6th Seal, but there is disagreement over whether this passage has anything to do with the rapture.  Much of this disagreement stems from the common interpretation of the words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29)---taking this tribulation to be that of Daniel's 70th Week.  But consider:  If Jesus is here speaking of Daniel's 70th Week, it is evident that it would be immediately after this that what Jesus says will happen will happen.  Yet, if this happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, then Christ's appearance at this time would seem to have to be His Second Coming.

  But, His appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal doesn't look anything like the undisputed account of His Second Coming given in Revelation 19:11-16ff. 

And this throws you off? Are you saying that only one description of the event is allowed? That's like saying an elephant is described as having a long trunk and if someone says it has grey, wrinkled skin it's something else. 

No Diaste, this was just one point among many.  When you were but a youngster, if someone had told you that an elephant has "a long trunk" and someone else said "it has grey, wrinkled skin", would you not have simply looked to see if all this was so?

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

 

Also, if it is His Second Coming that happens at this time, where do the vials of God's wrath fit?  And, why for celestial signs, which arguably would pale into utter insignificance at the time of Christ's Second Coming? 

The celestial signs are the herald of His coming.

According to your take, would not this then render His coming to a day or an hour that they think, instead of think not?

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

 

And how, with the common understanding, could Jesus at this time come as a "thief" or the Day of the Lord come as "a thief in the night"? 

If you read it all you would see..."But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." That does NOT overtake believers like a thief, that only happens to those in darkness. What you propose above implies the darkness of the church at large, to which I agree.

I wasn't alluding to believers when I said what I did.  It seems that the thing of this not overtaking "believers like a thief" and that this "only happens to those in darkness" is your pat answer anytime something is said about Jesus or the DOTL coming as a thief.  I will comment on this further in a minute.  But, if everything has happened up till this time according to your position, how could the world of unbelievers not be then wondering if it was all about to come down "as all those Christians have been saying all these years."  Even now, in the face of far, far less catastrophes, people often think the world is coming to an end.  Very closely connected with this, I don't remember you ever having answered how it is that Jesus will come as a thief when the Antichrist and all those in league with him will be gathered "to make war against Him" at His coming (Rev. 19:19).

Concerning what I mentioned that I would comment on further, before Paul said what he did to the Thessalonians about their not being in darkness (I Thess. 5:4-8), he had also said the following...

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Evidently Paul had spoke to them before concerning the Day of the Lord, enough that he could say what he did in verse two.  They were not in the dark concerning this.  And, he enjoined them to "not sleep" (which they could have) and to "be sober" (which they could have not been) so that the reality of what he was telling them would be their experience in the event of it happening.  On the surface, it seems to me that your take on this is that the moment someone is saved, they would be made to understand all about this.  When we are saved, we indeed become "children of light" (I Thess. 5:5), but this does not mean that we all of a sudden understand everything.  In the case of some (and probably most), it is often years before they have any kind of solid concept of the last days and all the ifs, ands, and buts.  Just think:  What was the case with you when you were first saved, or even well afterwards, when you were in the transition of rejecting what you had been taught?

Paul told the Ephesians, "but now are ye light in the Lord, walk as children of light" (Eph. 5:8).  Does this mean they all did?  This was preached and taught to me when I was young in the Lord, but I did not always walk as a child of light.  Since you've been saved, have you always walked as a child of light?

I'm thinking now of a school trip I helped take the 7th graders on last week.  I drove one of the two bus loads to Mammoth Cave.  Of course, us drivers got to go on the tour as well.  Our guide carried a lantern throughout the cave and there was other lighting she could switch on along the way.  One thing about it---we did not see all there was to see the moment we entered the cave.  What we did when we entered was to begin to see what there was to see.  The guide was very familiar, and now we were getting a little more familiar.  Me, I was more familiar than most of the others, for I had been there some 55 years before and about every 10 or 15 years since.  I have seen things in Mammoth Cave that some on that trip will never see, as there are several different tours and some that are no longer offered.  Annnyway, if alone, you could have the light in your hand, but, if you tried to make such a journey with your eyes closed, you would get all mixed up.  Similarly, you can have the Light in your heart, but, if you try to make life's journey with your eyes closed, you will get all mixed up.

One other thing.  When a thief comes, the purpose is to make off with the goods.  For the saved, if Jesus' coming for us happens suddenly and at a time that we happen to not be expecting it, we are still the goods!  It will be those from whom the goods are taken that will be in a turmoil.  

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

 

As I have before brought out, to see Christ's 6th Seal appearance as His Second Coming (and all that that interpretation involves) would be tantamount to seeing Noah and his family having to brave the biggest part of the flood before they even boarded the ark.

Only because you have the timeline wrong.

Yet, your timeline has the first five seals opened and the first six trumpets having been sounded before the Church is even gathered.  As I said in your quote of me, seems that this would be "tantamount to seeing Noah and his family having to brave the biggest part of the flood before they even boarded the ark."

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

Whatever the correct understanding of Jesus' words may be in Matthew 24:29, when understood from my perspective, a lot sure comes together in a very interesting way.  Below, is a diagram I have used before which shows what I see to be the three divisions of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and what I refer to as the intersecting event of Christ's Sign Appearance.  In Matthew's account, I see this as happening between 24:14 and 24:15.  When Jesus says, "and then shall the end come" (vs. 14), I believe this is in reference to the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which again, includes Daniel's 70th Week.  Right after this (vs. 15/cp. Dan. 12:4, 8-9), Jesus turns His attention to things related to the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 15-28).  According to my understanding, everything Jesus says beyond this point, from verse 29 through verse 51, concerns that singular day (like Monday) of the opening of the 6th Seal and the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vs. 30/Rev. 6:15-17)---what I refer to as the intersecting event.  Finally, the tribulation Jesus speaks of in verse 29 is that that He warned of in verses 4-14 and corresponds with the activity of the four horsemen of the first four seals.

I was able to become firm on the above understanding in big part because of what we find in The Revelation, which I see as being a key to understanding what I am putting forth.  Basically, in The Revelation, the first four seals of the Seven Sealed Book disclose the tribulation effected by the activity of the four horsemen, with the 5th Seal having a close kinship with the 4th.  As I believe you realize, I see the four horsemen as representing the forces of Satan behind the tribulation that has characterized the world since the time of the apostles and until now.  With the opening of the 6th Seal, the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" will take place, along with the gathering of the Church.  The events of this day will commence the last days' Day of the Lord judgment and includes the opening of the 7th Seal.  This is going to be a very huge day, which will join hard with the sounding of the first trumpets and the world's stage being shortly reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.

Pretrib nonsense. I don't buy it and never will unless that's how events play out. Which is impossible according to Jesus.

You say, "Pretrib nonsense."  I hope that your distaste of the common pre-trib view hasn't caused you to close your eyes.

On 4/7/2022 at 4:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/6/2022 at 3:50 PM, not an echo said:

The above understanding---coupled with the other prophetic puzzle pieces that fit into the picture---makes possible a different perspective on Jesus' words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29).  Because Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:52), I believe Christ will be glimpsed at His sign appearance, but just as quickly gone.  However, there will be the lingering of the celestial signs, which will be undeniable Biblical testimonies to those left behind that "the great day of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17/the Day of the Lord) has come indeed.  Weaving together Jesus' Olivet Discourse with The Revelation, from this perspective, Jesus would be saying that, "Immediately after the tribulation" He had spoken of earlier (Matthew 24:4-14/Rev. 6:1-11), the Day of the Lord will commence (Matt. 24:29-51/Rev. 6:12-17ff), of which Daniel's 70th Week will be a part (Matt. 24:15-28/Rev. 11:1-19:21).

When you cherry pick a fragment, sure; one can make it out to be anything. Immediately after the tribulation of the those days, only comes after THAT tribulation, the GT, and that only follows "when you see standing in the holy place". You have taken it out of time and place.

No, what I've done is to endeavor to let all of what is revealed in Scripture bear upon my understanding.  Whatever we are believing about anything we find in the Bible, our understanding must align with everything else that is found there.