David1701 Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.46 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Riverwalker said: Okay its time to stir the pot again but I am going to put forth an idea about Job, that I see in the scriptures that flies in the face of traditional teaching. It is just an idea and I am more than willing to be wrong about it...but it just makes me go hmmm Yes God does point out Job to satan, 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” But when God says 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” Is he tearing down that hedge of protection, or is he revealing a breach in it? A breach that Job Created by fear. When Job says in chapter 3: 25 For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me, And what I dreaded has happened to me. Has he given place to the devil? The case can be made that fear and faith are complete opposites and that one is ceding power to God and one is giving it to satan. I am interesting in any and all thoughts. This is standard teaching of the WoF movement; but, there is no evidence that Job's fear is the reason why God allowed the devil to torment Job like this. It is certainly not the theme of the book, which is about wisdom, suffering, God's sovereignty, pride and humility. Edited April 1, 2021 by David1701 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,996 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,693 Content Per Day: 11.69 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, leah777 said: Who is driving the sin and evil in this world if not satan? So much evil, including against Christians. There are many misconceptions regarding the devil, including the following: • Satan is not a personal being, but rather is only a force of evil. • He is equal to God, thus creating a form of dualism. • He resides in and is the ruler of hell. • He can do whatever he pleases. • He is omnipresent. • He received a ransom from Jesus when Jesus died on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,608 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, missmuffet said: He resides in and is the ruler of hell. He was cast to Erets (earth and the underworld in Hebrew). Satan rules everyone that is not saved because he 'owns' those that sin without redemption from the Lord. He has no power or presence to accuse the brethren any more. "Behold, I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven.." In the Babel scattering, God gave lesser sons of God charge over the 70 nations. All they did was form the pantheons. They became indicted in Psalm 82 for causing the nations to stumble. Saul/Paul's ministry was to those nations where he was sent by God to undo the works of darkness. He told them that they no longer needed to worship the fallen 'gods' since now they had no power. These 'gods' only have the power humans give to them. God disowned them all and indicted them in Psalm 82: Ye shall die like men and fall like any prince. So if we elevate these fallen hosts, we allow them power that God took away from them. Yes they are powerless but if we 'worship them' then we give place to them in our lives. They are ALL DEFEATED. They make noises and do not want to give up easily - they had it their own way for a long time. But Yeshua led captivity captive and TRANSLATED us into the Kingdom of God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 9,608 Content Per Day: 3.90 Reputation: 7,810 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) We are living AFTER the cross. It all changed then. Since few pulpits dare talk about this we seem to elevate the satan figure far higher than necessary and ignore all the principalities and powers that have been likewise unseated. Perhaps that is why the church is ineffectual largely. They have bought into the lie that these fallen hosts are still in power! They will do all they can to convince us of this 'fake fact' when in actuality we can tread on the scorpions! "He has translated you into the Kingdom of His Dear Son". What could be clearer than that!! Edited April 1, 2021 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logostician Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 364 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 440 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 Nothing happens outside the will of God. All things work to his purpose. When Job is afflicted he never even thinks about Satan at all. He gives Satan his proper consideration, which is nothing at all. Job's conversation and thoughts are with God as they should be. As stated by others here Job is an object lesson for everyone who has faith in God. In times of trouble, we will either flee to God, or away from God. Job gets a little bit testy, and defensive with God, but he maintains his conversation with God. He knows there is nowhere else to go. His "friends" give a lot of bad advice. But Job is not deterred. His conversation is with God. That is how we need to maintain our relationship with God through Jesus. We will all face troubles. We will all question why we have to face these troubles, and struggle in the heart and mind with current and future consequences of these troubles. But we need to flee to Jesus and redouble our conversation with him, which is prayer. Jesus struggled with this same thing in a far greater impending hardship than Job could ever imagine. The suffering of Jesus was greater than the suffering of any man. Ever. But his relationship with the Father, and yielding to his will was unbreakable. Luk 22:41-44 And he was withdrawn from them about a stones cast, and kneeled down and prayed, saying Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And Jesus went on to die a horrific death on the cross for the forgiveness of the sins of all mankind. Because that was the will of his, and our, father. That was the act that saved the world. Job is an object lesson in suffering. But Jesus is the fulfillment of all things. Look to him in all seasons, including times of trouble and suffering. He understands it better than anyone. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,220 Content Per Day: 1.49 Reputation: 2,583 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: He was cast to Erets (earth and the underworld in Hebrew). Satan rules everyone that is not saved because he 'owns' those that sin without redemption from the Lord. He has no power or presence to accuse the brethren any more. "Behold, I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven.." Luke 10:18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." Rev. 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 12 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death." Rev. 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these things.” I must disagree with what you said. The Luke passage says nothing about Satan being cast down to earth. Remember, there are three heavens, so Satan may be/has been cast down from a higher ones to a lower ones, progressively over time. Second, the passage from Revelation 12 tells us that Satan could not have been cast down to earth as the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, because at that time his disciples had not yet "overcome by the blood of the Lamb," because He had not yet shed that blood. This is an End Time Prophecy, "things that must take place" after the 7 messages to the Churches of Rev. 2-3. Third, the Rev. 12:7 war in heaven, led by the Archangel Michael, is also foretold in Daniel 12:1, which is an unequivocally End Time passage. Fourth, Paul speaks in Ephesians 2:2 about "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." This is the lowest heaven, wherein Satan and his evil angels still reside and have power. When Jesus returns, he will come "in [the] air" ( 1 Thes. 4:16-17), that very same realm, from which Satan will be driven down to earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankIeCip Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 757 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 1,119 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/08/1978 Share Posted April 1, 2021 And PATIENCE. Remember the patience of Job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,220 Content Per Day: 1.49 Reputation: 2,583 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Riverwalker said: I am interesting in any and all thoughts. According the to history provided in the Book of Jasher, Job was at one time a counselor to Pharaoh of Egypt during the time that Israel was in bondage there. Job provided evil counsel to Pharaoh when he asked for advice from all his counselors about how to cut down the on their baby boom problem. I can't help but think that that advice opened the door for his own children to be killed. Jasher 66:17 And Job spoke before the king, the princes, and before all the elders of Egypt, saying, 18 Behold the counsel of the king which he advised formerly respecting the labor of the children of Israel is very good, and you must not remove from them that labor forever. 19 But this is the advice counselled by which you may lessen them, if it seems good to the king to afflict them. 20 Behold we have feared war for a long time, and we said, When Israel becomes fruitful in the land, they will drive us from the land if a war should take place. 21 If it please the king, let a royal decree go forth, and let it be written in the laws of Egypt which shall not be revoked, that every male child born to the Israelites, his blood shall be spilled upon the ground. 22 And by your doing this, when all the male children of Israel shall have died, the evil of their wars will cease; let the king do so and send for all the Hebrew midwives and order them in this matter to execute it; so the thing pleased the king and the princes, and the king did according to the word of Job. 23 And the king sent for the Hebrew midwives to be called, of which the name of one was Shephrah, and the name of the other Puah. 24 And the midwives came before the king, and stood in his presence. 25 And the king said unto them, When you do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools, if it be a son, then you shall kill him, but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. 26 But if you will not do this thing, then will I burn you up and all your houses with fire. 27 But the midwives feared God and did not hearken to the king of Egypt nor to his words, and when the Hebrew women brought forth to the midwife son or daughter, then did the midwife do all that was necessary to the child and let it live; thus did the midwives all the days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leah777 Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,393 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,156 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/09/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, missmuffet said: There are many misconceptions regarding the devil, including the following: • Satan is not a personal being, but rather is only a force of evil. • He is equal to God, thus creating a form of dualism. • He resides in and is the ruler of hell. • He can do whatever he pleases. • He is omnipresent. • He received a ransom from Jesus when Jesus died on the cross. I do not believe any of the things you list. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leah777 Posted April 1, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,393 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,156 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/09/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, missmuffet said: There are many misconceptions regarding the devil, including the following: • Satan is not a personal being, but rather is only a force of evil. • He is equal to God, thus creating a form of dualism. • He resides in and is the ruler of hell. • He can do whatever he pleases. • He is omnipresent. • He received a ransom from Jesus when Jesus died on the cross. this does not answer my question though. I genuinely would like scripture about this please. I will start a different thread so as not to derail. Edited April 1, 2021 by leah777 clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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