GODS WARNING

[missmuffet]

20 hours ago, teddyv said:

Just an example of an area of widely differing views among Christians, that's all.

Believing in pre trib or post trib or mid trib is not a salvation issue. 

[Justin Adams]

12 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Believing in pre trib or post trib or mid trib is not a salvation issue. 

The modern doctrine of premillennialism denies that Jesus has yet established His kingdom.

It claims that Christ must establish an earthly, literal, civil kingdom like David's. Since this does not now exist, they claim the kingdom was not established in the first century, but when Jesus returns He will establish such a kingdom and reign on earth 1000 years.

While there is much variety among those who hold such views, in some form this doctrine is taught by nearly every fundamentalist group including Baptists, Adventists, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, and some "churches of Christ."

The importance some attach to this doctrine is shown by the following quote:

"It is not too much to say that millennialism is a determining factor in Biblical interpretation of comparable importance to the doctrines of verbal inspiration, the Deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, and bodily resurrection" - Millennial Kingdom, p 16 

I believe He came to earth to establish His kingdom and has been reigning as king since the church began on Pentecost. To say that Jesus is not now reigning as King would be to deny or belittle many major Bible truths. In particular, it belittles Jesus' pre-eminence as King.

The contrast between this and premillennialism is made clear in these quotations:

"David's son, the Lord Jesus Christ, must return to the earth, bodily and literally, in order to reign over David's covenanted kingdom. The allegation that Christ is seated on the Father's throne reigning over a spiritual kingdom, the church, simply does not fulfill the promises of the covenant ... A literal earthly kingdom must be constituted over which the returned Messiah reigns" - Pentecost, Things to Come, pp. 114,115 

"Had the people received Him, He would have fulfilled the kingly prophecies in their day in addition to the ones regarding the suffering Messiah. But when the Jewish nation as a whole rejected Christ, the fulfillment of His kingship was postponed until the final culmination of world history" - Lindsey, There's a New World Coming, p. 30 

"...even though Christ has the right to rule the earth, He isn't exercising this authority over kings and kingdoms at this time" - Hal Lindsey, There's a New World Coming, p. 206 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Justin Adams

[missmuffet]

4 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The modern doctrine of premillennialism denies that Jesus has yet established His kingdom.

It claims that Christ must establish an earthly, literal, civil kingdom like David's. Since this does not now exist, they claim the kingdom was not established in the first century, but when Jesus returns He will establish such a kingdom and reign on earth 1000 years.

While there is much variety among those who hold such views, in some form this doctrine is taught by nearly every fundamentalist group including Baptists, Adventists, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, and some "churches of Christ."

The importance some attach to this doctrine is shown by the following quote:

"It is not too much to say that millennialism is a determining factor in Biblical interpretation of comparable importance to the doctrines of verbal inspiration, the Deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, and bodily resurrection" - Millennial Kingdom, p 16 

I believe He came to earth to establish His kingdom and has been reigning as king since the church began on Pentecost. To say that Jesus is not now reigning as King would be to deny or belittle many major Bible truths. In particular, it belittles Jesus' pre-eminence as King.

The contrast between this and premillennialism is made clear in these quotations:

"David's son, the Lord Jesus Christ, must return to the earth, bodily and literally, in order to reign over David's covenanted kingdom. The allegation that Christ is seated on the Father's throne reigning over a spiritual kingdom, the church, simply does not fulfill the promises of the covenant ... A literal earthly kingdom must be constituted over which the returned Messiah reigns" - Pentecost, Things to Come, pp. 114,115 

"Had the people received Him, He would have fulfilled the kingly prophecies in their day in addition to the ones regarding the suffering Messiah. But when the Jewish nation as a whole rejected Christ, the fulfillment of His kingship was postponed until the final culmination of world history" - Lindsey, There's a New World Coming, p. 30 

"...even though Christ has the right to rule the earth, He isn't exercising this authority over kings and kingdoms at this time" - Hal Lindsey, There's a New World Coming, p. 206 

 

I do not support your theology. 

[Justin Adams]

Just now, missmuffet said:

I do not support your theology. 

So you are pre-mil then? 

A totally unsupported theory based on a misunderstanding of Revelation and Daniel and the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. When Darby created this 'dispensational theory' it was very new considering that for 1800 years the church had taught otherwise. He even created Dallas Theological Seminary to make sure his falsehoods would be promoted. Scofield made his own bible to make sure the error was continued.

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

So you are pre-mil then? 

A totally unsupported theory based on a misunderstanding of Revelation and Daniel and the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. When Darby created this 'dispensational theory' it was very new considering that for 1800 years the church had taught otherwise. He even created Dallas Theological Seminary to make sure his falsehoods would be promoted. Scofield made his own bible to make sure the error was continued.

That is your opinion. I would rather look at what the Bible tells me. 

[debrakay]

@Justin Adams I'm just wondering, do you personally think that a person's lack of belief or knowledge in any futuristic or future prophetic topics recorded in scripture have a bearing on that person's salvation?  

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, debrakay said:

@Justin Adams I'm just wondering, do you personally think that a person's lack of belief or knowledge in any futuristic or future prophetic topics recorded in scripture have a bearing on that person's salvation?  

I would suggest that if believers do not believe that the Lord is presently Ruling and Reigning and we, as Priests and Kings, are likewise with Him... Well then, like cessationists, I think they will have far more difficulty in life if they are denying the Lord as being active and on His Throne.

Dispensational thought and the pre-mil errors will probably affect how folk act and proclaim the Gospel. If they do not proclaim the Gospel, then that will affect other people's 'salvation' of course. It is very subtle, but those ideas can actually rob Christ of His divinity.

[debrakay]

2 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I would suggest that if believers do not believe that the Lord is presently Ruling and Reigning and we, as Priests and Kings, are likewise with Him... Well then, like cessationists, I think they will have far more difficulty in life if they are denying the Lord as being active and on His Throne.

Dispensational thought and the pre-mil errors will probably affect how folk act and proclaim the Gospel. If they do not proclaim the Gospel, then that will affect other people's 'salvation' of course. It is very subtle, but those ideas can actually rob Christ of His divinity.

I'm sorry but I do not know what a cessationist is.  I do not know what dispensational thought is.  I do not much care about theories on pre, post, or any other type of millennialism.  For me, I have been sharing the gospel for 40 years and I have seen the fruits of my labor.  I very much doubt that anything I do will ever rob Jesus Christ of any of His divinity.  In fact, I don't think there is anyone, anywhere that can take anything away from God the Son. When the Father said His name was I AM that pretty well said to me there is no change EVER in who He is.  He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever so nothing little ole me can do will ever change anything about Him or His divinity.  

Was your answer to my question yes or no? That's all I really wanted to know.

[Justin Adams]

13 minutes ago, debrakay said:

Was your answer to my question yes or no? That's all I really wanted to know.

No, except for the caveats mentioned. It may be a stumbling block to others. Others is what it is all about after all.

You might read up on the pre-mil and dispensational stuff though as it is pretty prevalent, especially in the USA and the seminary taught preachers. You see it all the time on TV and in books. It is good to be well armed and well informed.

Blessings.

[David1701]

34 minutes ago, debrakay said:

I'm sorry but I do not know what a cessationist is. 

A Cessationist is someone who does not believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.  They are often willing to cast doubt on the veracity of parts of Scripture, in order to continue in their unbelief (e.g. many of them claim that Mark 16:9-20 is not genuine, in spite of the overwhelming evidence that it is).

Quote

 I do not know what dispensational thought is. 

Dispensationalism divides the Bible up into "dispensations", during which they claim that God dealt with people differently.  There are various opinions, among Dispensationalists, as to how many dispensations there supposedly are and there are large books written on the subject.

They tend to read things into Scriptures that are not there (e.g. that the seven Churches, in Rev. 1-3, allegedly refer to seven Church ages, even though there is not one shred of evidence for this) and then interpret other Scriptures based on those speculations.

J.N. Darby was one of the main inventors of Dispensationalism, in the 1800s.  Ironically, his translation of the Bible contains a phrase that describes it excellently.

Eph. 4:11-14 (Darby)

11 and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers,
  12 for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ;
  13 until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ;
  14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of *that* teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

Edited May 6, 2021 by David1701