Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

"some" 

That means it is not restored.

Your own post proves the point. 

And I still don't see any answer to the question asked: Where does scripture state a third temple will be built? 

 

There's no statement anywhere in scripture stating another temple of stone will be built and the nation of Israel has not been restored to all it land. Those are the facts. They are facts upon which we do agree and facts upon which there can be no disagreement (because they are facts ). 

 

 

.

Two temples are come and gone.  Shortly after the Second Coming to the Mt of Olives Jesus enters through the East Gate and fills the Temple with His Glory.  This is the place for the soles of my feet, this is where I will live among the Israelites forever.

Third Temple

2 Thes 2:4 - He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple (third temple, built by the Jews), proclaiming himself to be God.  Still future, yet to come.

The fact is Israel is being restored to their land (ongoing process). This is the generation of the fig tree to witness these events. The fact is they are in the final stages of having a pure Red Heifer the ashes of which are to purify their new Temple. The only time these ashes are used.  Also Levites are/have been trained to fill their duties when in the new temple.  A little landscaping needs to take place before the new temple. The Dome must come down.

All in preparation for the 70th Week.  The final One Seven.  All Scriptural, All Fact, All in the future.  No refuting.  It is a done deal.  Not from the past.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

They are connected. That is another assumption being placed on the text. The text itself never states any such thing. Only an appeal to something extra-biblical can justify such a belief. 

No. This is an argument from silence. In fact including the Temple prophecy in the Olivet Discourse is itself extrabiblical and unsupported by the text.

 When Jesus gave the Temple prophecy He was exiting the Temple.

"As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, look at the magnificent stones and buildings!”"

Then this:

"While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”"

According to Goggle maps it's a least a half hour walk from the Temple mount to the Mount of Olives; a little further if the Temple was in the city of David, just south of the Temple mount. We have no clue if the Olivet Discourse occurred within the same hour or not. Maybe it was the next day, or a few days later. We know the Olivet Discourse was two days before Passover, when Jesus prophesied about the Temple is not exactly clear. Even as it was within the week we have no idea what they were talking about in the interim or how long the interim was, or even if important testimony was shared but not recorded. You're not of the mind everything Jesus said and did was recorded, are you?

We do know there is no mention of the Temple being destroyed as Jesus expounded on the end of the age and the sign of His coming. The only mention of the Temple is at Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14 and it's intact so the A of D can be stand in the holy place. So it seems a crucial detail left out in the Olivet Discourse that would forever link the question "when will these things happen, (Matthew) and "“Tell us, when will these things happen?" (Mark) to the Temple prophecy would be to include the Temple destruction in the answer. Not that it matters as the Temple prophecy and the answers to the Disciples questions are not even in the same conversation and separated by at least 30 mins and perhaps days. 

Is it possible the Temple was on the mind of the disciples and that's what they were asking about? Sure. But we can't do personal interviews and ask them, can we? 

And isn't the concept global and not local? So the disciples asked about the end of the age and the answer they got was the end of Israel and Jerusalem? And the coming of Jesus was part of that query. Did Jesus come back?

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

The phrase "this generation" is conjugated in the near demonstrative, so it cannot be made to mean some other generation other than the one to whom he was speaking. There are over a dozen mentions of "this generation" in Matthew and they all reference the audience to whom Jesus was speaking at that time. 

It can by three bits of evidence and a major concept that is largely ignored in contemporary Christianity.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." 

This was not fulfilled by 70 AD.

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

Your argument here is based on verb tense. I agree. But it's near to the generation where "all these things have happened."

Are the signs of His appearance recorded by the major 1st century historians Josephus and Tactius? They did record some kind of unnatural phenomena surrounding the fall of Jerusalem at the destruction of the Temple but none like what is described in Matt 24:29-31. Matt 24:29-31 events are part of "all these things"

When it's assumed the privations endured by 70 AD Jewry and Israelis coincide with Matt 24 an important idea is dismissed; Jesus is speaking to believers in Him, not Jews. From Matt 24:4-22 it's to followers of the way. By 70 AD the Gospel had spread away from Israel. Were those believers not in Israel affected by Matt 24:4-22?

And the major concept is an eternal God. Two millennia mean nothing to Him. There is a great deal written about the timelessness of God Almighty and so I don't assume a time frame. I let the Word speak. The Word is saying we have to see certain specific events; no record of the events as described in total are recorded as occurring in 70 AD. Doesn't mean they didn't occur. No record for any of them however. Not even one, and certainly not all. 

It's funny. We saw none of it at anytime and there's no record but...

 

 

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Add it to the list. But do so noting the Spirit NEVER contradicts the written word. Logos and Rhema never conflict. 

 

The points attempting to be made is 1) there are standards for examining scripture to which we all can and should abide and 2) those disagreeing with me are not practicing them. 

I've said it before but that list is a man made list potentially vulnerable to deep bias in the practitioner. 

If the list is suborned to the Spirit in every case with the full weight of all relevant fact that's one thing. Strict adherence to man made practice is a barrier to understanding. Been there, done that. Not doing it again.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, all the conditions were met. Yes, there was/is an answer here in this thread. Jesus' own words show it was not a far-distant set f events about which he spoke. The witness of the epistolary writers explicitly state the end of the ages (not just the beginning of the last days) were happening as they wrote letters to the various churches in the first century. All of the temple observable by the disciples that morning was in fact destroyed. Earth quakes did in fact happen. One of them in 60 AD caused a tsunami. Another just two years later i s believed to have been the precursor to the destruction of Pompeii and Herculaneum seventeen years later. The first century Roman historian Seneca the Younger wrote a book on natural events in which one chapter recorded earthquakes in that region; it was titled "De Terrae Motu" ("Concerning Earthquakes"). The book of Acts records an earthquake that freed Paul and Silas. Jesus' prediction about earth quakes came true.

 

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

There were scores of wars in the Roman Empire during the first century. The Roman conquest of Britain began in 43 AD. It continued for several years after Jerusalem's destruction. The First Jewish-Roman War that ended up destroying Jerusalem and most of Israel began in 66AD. In 38 AD riots in Alexandria broke out where Jews were singled out and attacked. The Jewish philosopher Philo led a delegation to Caligula to ask for Imperial legal consent for Jews to reside there. In 46 AD there was an uprising in Judea that the Romans squashed. It took two years. The Roman Bosporan War began in 45 AD and lasted four years. The Romans were constantly fighting to hold back the Germans and in 58 AD there was a battle, the Salt Battle, that lasted three months. In the early 50s the Romans fought to control Iberia and as a consequence fFrom 58 to 63 AD the Romans were fighting a war against the Parthians. I can probably name another six or seven wars that occurred in the regions around Israel within the generation of the apostles. These are facts of history anyone and look up and objectively verify. 

I agree. But the same things from Matt 24:5-7 have always happened. Look at the OT wars. That's just what is recorded in the bible. The Babylonians and Persians must have felt their world was ending during the wars leading to Alexander. And the Israelites caught in the middle in all of it. And this is just from 500 BC. If this is true Jesus was an historian? What was done will be done? Doomed to repeat history?

So what would differentiate human history from Matt 24:5-7?

The word for 'divers' or various is

"katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" "

Looks like it's supernaturally driven to a result and not the actions of warlike creatures or natural disaster.

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Jesus said the gospel would be preached throughout the world and Paul stated the gospel had been preached "all over the world," and throughout all creation by the time he'd written to the Colossians (Col. 1:6,23). He told Timothy the same thing (1 Tim. 3:16).

That's not the whole story. Paul is referring to the " word of the truth of the gospel; come into the world (kosmos). More akin to the truth making an entrance into the world system and the universe and not an endorsement of global reach. If so, then by 70 AD the gospel needed to be in SA and NA, Australia, the British Isles, Greenland, Iceland. I think I saw the earliest evidence of Europeans in the Americas at around 900 AD. 

Paul did not say the gospel had been preached all over the world.

 5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit,

This is far different than what you just said.

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

I do not have the time to post a lengthy list of all the historical evidence so I've done so in increments. 

No one has bothered to acknowledge any of these facts. 

It is rather simple. Jesus list certain types of events and they happened. Those prophesies were fulfilled and it is because God kept His word that we can trust Him to do so forever. I'm not sure it has daned on any of the futurists their eschatology makes God out to be a god who hasn't kept His promises and that's why they have to appeal to 2 Peter 3:8, even though Peter's intent was to assert the prophecies were coming true as he was writing, as he was living in the last days, the ends of the age. 

When I have time I will provide additional evidence for the remaining events Jesus listed but in the interim look at the evidence already provided. 

Last days and end of the age are not synonymous. As much as you chide others about accuracy I would think you would practice the same.

 

[Marilyn C]

On 6/14/2021 at 4:45 AM, TrueGospel said:

The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15

 

Hi TG,

Do you realise that when interpreting God`s word, or anything written, (newspaper etc) that we find out who is speaking to whom.

Jesus was speaking to the people of Israel and telling them what will happen when He returns for their nation. That is one purpose of God.

Then we read in Paul`s epistles what the Lord, the Head of the Body is saying to His Body - that He will come for them when He has made them mature in Himself. (Eph. 4: 13. And that time is very soon. We have been guided by the Holy Spirit into most truths of Christ`s character and His purposes just the eternal purposes to be clarified across the Body. And that is another purpose of God.

regards, Marilyn.

[TrueGospel]

20 hours ago, Chicken coop2 said:

I'm still confused about two things in the title of this thread. 

1. Secret rapture.  How would it be a secret?  Whenever it happens the ones who were not in the rapture would most likely say: Wow, looks like the Christians were correct!

2. Fear. Why would anyone fear a pre-trib rapture?  One would think this would be a most wonderful and joyous occasion (unless you are not in it).

 

Before I learned the signs of the true end time prophecy, I read about left behind prophecy and those fake christs in bible verses.  Which caused great fear in me.  

Matthew 24:23 King James Version

 

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

 

After that I prayed to God for help and he provided me the bottom verses and more.

 

Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

 

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

 

 

[TrueGospel]

Stop trying to deceive God's elect with false gospels and false doctrines.  Am going to bulldoze and smash all false gospels/doctrines.  

1st false doctrine the nonelect pastors only taught me just believe in Jesus and you will be saved.  Which is a false gospel. Youtube="Paul Washer - War On The Sinner's Prayer." No one mentioned you need to receive the Holy Spirit and be free from sin.  It's only after I am born again and God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found 99% of the world are nonelects, they never received the Holy Spirit and don't know how people are saved.

2nd Since vast majority of people are nonelects there is a bunch of false doctrines and false prophecies that they created, that I got pray to God to test everything.  

Romans 8:38-39 King James Version

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Bottom is true gospel.  

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)


Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/jesus-eternal-punishment-hours/

[The Light]

4 hours ago, TrueGospel said:

Stop trying to deceive God's elect with false gospels and false doctrines.  Am going to bulldoze and smash all false gospels/doctrines.  

 

I haven't seen much bulldozing going on. You tell me that Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation. That's a fact. He is also coming in an hour that you think not. Do the math.

[Montana Marv]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

There were two temples still standing when Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. There is nothing within the 2 Thessalonians' text indicating there will be another temple and there most certainly is no statement anywhere else in the entire Bible stating another temple will be built. There is no reason to imagine a third temple given the existing facts of scripture and what is actually stated. 

What you need to decide is the Temple of Ezk 40 - 44 Herod's temple; or the New future Third Temple.  Only one can be correct.  Choose wisely.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

On 6/15/2021 at 9:35 PM, Josheb said:

Sure I do. It is the reason we are trying to have a conversation. Don't confuse acceptance with agreement. Many times I have pointed out God's love for diversity: there are seven billion people on the planet each and every one of them individually unique and different, each and every one of them bearing His image in a different way. That is not accidental. James was different than John who was different than Paul who was different than Peter and God made each of them differently and then chose each and every one of them for His purpose knowing the differences would be used differently. 

I'm quite comfortable with the diversity found with Christianity.

The above statement is nice and what I expect from a brother. 

On 6/15/2021 at 9:35 PM, Josheb said:

So the attempted ad hominem isn't just fallacious, it's just wrong. 

I agree, these attacks should never happen, yet they do.  I've found there are a few reasons why this happens, mostly because the one side's stance is weak so they resort to trying to tear down their opponent.  Then there is just the fact that people are responding to a ad-hominem attack presented to them, as in a form of striking back.

There are very few people I just can't communicate with, and it appears to me that this is do to passive aggressive personalities and people who are verbose in nature.  Because of this, and due to a nice conversation I had with someone about this short coming of mine, I will choose to walk away from this conversation.  As I said, I have studied this for many years and fall on the other side of your theology, so it's not like I can't defend my stance or don't have answers, it's sue to having a hard time communicating with you.