Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

 Yahweh is One who established order.  

Right, Moses was told that the things that pertain to the tabernacle were to be patterned after what is in heaven. But we never see Moses doing this 24 elders division...only fulfilled by the actions of David, most likely by consulting with the priests. There is reason to to strongly suggest David had such consultation.

And this is why some of us believe the 24 elders were a "priestly class of angels" to quote one of the commentaries. The term "elder" is simply one of status. Otherwise we may run into a true conundrum. The apostles were told THEY would be sitting thrones and could qualify as elders. We would be faced with John seeing himself sitting before the throne. (maybe talking to himself?) Also, notice no body standing that sea of glass in this scenario as we see in another place. (these are all visions that are not necessarily in order) Theologians have taken this scene to be of of Jesus having been raised from the dead and given the the "deed " to the Earth and the future fulfillment of its reconquest. It makes for interesting reading, if you are one who likes to delve into it more.

 

 

[OldCoot]

14 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Right, Moses was told that the things that pertain to the tabernacle were to be patterned after what is in heaven. But we never see Moses doing this 24 elders division...only fulfilled by the actions of David, most likely by consulting with the priests. There is reason to to strongly suggest David had such consultation.

And this is why some of us believe the 24 elders were a "priestly class of angels" to quote one of the commentaries. The term "elder" is simply one of status. Otherwise we may run into a true conundrum. The apostles were told THEY would be sitting thrones and could qualify as elders. We would be faced with John seeing himself sitting before the throne. (maybe talking to himself?) Also, notice no body standing that sea of glass in this scenario as we see in another place. (these are all visions that are not necessarily in order) Theologians have taken this scene to be of of Jesus having been raised from the dead and given the the "deed " to the Earth and the future fulfillment of its reconquest. It makes for interesting reading, if you are one who likes to delve into it more.

 

 

I never stated that in every instance of priests being mentioned is 24 referenced or alluded to.  I stated that every time 24 is shown in scripture, it does pertain to priests and such.  Just because Moshe didn’t utilize the 24 in any way doesn’t negate that.

And it very well could be the Apostles who lead 12 of those divisions.  Scripture does not detail clearly if the Apostles are part of the 24 or not.

but never are angels given ruling type crowns or shown to be sitting on thrones.  Certainly not considered redeemed by the blood of Yeshua. 

so we are left with the translation issue about us and we vs them and they.   And still it remains that the overwhelming majority of manuscripts have the 1st person possessive wording that supports the us and we translation.

and the support also comes from Peter who calls us “royal priesthood”.  Says the same thing as kings and priests.

Edited June 28, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

48 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I never stated that in every instance of priests being mentioned is 24 referenced or alluded to.  I stated that every time 24 is shown in scripture, it does pertain to priests and such.  Just because Moshe didn’t utilize the 24 in any way doesn’t negate that.

And it very well could be the Apostles who lead 12 of those divisions.  Scripture does not detail clearly if the Apostles are part of the 24 or not.

but never are angels given ruling type crowns or shown to be sitting on thrones.  Certainly not considered redeemed by the blood of Yeshua. 

so we are left with the translation issue about us and we vs them and they.   And still it remains that the overwhelming majority of manuscripts have the 1st person possessive wording that supports the us and we translation.

and the support also comes from Peter who calls us “royal priesthood”.  Says the same thing as kings and priests.

If you will look again, there is evidence to the contrary. Michael is referred to as a "prince", there was the "prince of Persia" referred to in Daniel and then there is:

"the prince of the devils"..."the prince of this world"...and, Satan himself is seen as the dragon wearing multiple crowns. He even gives his seat (thronos) to the beast.

The 24 "elders" certainly fits the idea of the earthly being patterned after the heavenly.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Uriah

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

If you will look again, there is evidence to the contrary. Michael is referred to as a "prince", there was the "prince of Persia" referred to in Daniel and then there is:

"the prince of the devils"..."the prince of this world"...and, Satan himself is seen as the dragon wearing multiple crowns. He even gives his seat (thronos) to the beast.

The 24 "elders" certainly fits the idea of the earthly being patterned after the heavenly.

 

 

Except prince as in prince of Persia or Michael the prince is “sar”  in Hebrew and not nagid which is a king.  Sar is like a chief or captain in military terms.  A leader.   Not at all in comparison to kings and priests that the redeemed are called who will reign with a rod of iron as Yeshua will as per Revelation 2:26-27. 

The Groom (Yeshua) and the bride (the redeemed) become one flesh in essence as per Genesis 2:24.  We rule along with Him.  No angel gets the same deal.

Edited June 28, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Quote

Except prince as in prince of Persia or Michael the prince is “sar”  in Hebrew and not nagid which is a king.  Sar is like a chief or captain in military terms.  A leader.   Not at all in comparison to kings and priests that the redeemed are called who will reign with a rod of iron as Yeshua will as per Revelation 2:26-27.

"Sar" as in:  and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace? So it goes to show the references I posted reveal that there orders of hierarchy among the angels THAT is the point, not word matches. And so was that fallen angel. The one with the crowns, seems to be a heirarchy there too.

Quote

The Groom (Yeshua) and the bride (the redeemed) become one flesh in essence as per Genesis 2:24.  We rule along with Him.  No angel gets the same deal.

This does not preclude angels from ruling in their order of hierarchy over other angels....UNTIL we arrive.

Speaking of the bride and Groom, how does she "get in" without the proper attire? Surely she isn't running around naked for years while chowing down.  Can one get in without the required attire, contrary to Jesus'teaching? It is only at the END in Rev. 19 when she is given her new attire. That is when she has made herself ready. And from a previous post, how will those who last to the very end, until Jesus comes get in too?. They have resisted the mark, they are seen in Rev 20:4, is it another rapture? You didn't answer me last time.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Uriah
further info clarification

[OldCoot]

You are right about sar in Isaiah.  Good catch.  Not sure it really means anything in the overall scope of things.

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Speaking of the bride and Groom, how does she "get in" without the proper attire?

It's called the redemption thru Yeshua's blood.  The free gift of grace.   Not by works lest anyone boast.

You are still confusing justification with sanctification.  Again, this example for the third time, Paul told the Corinthians to disfellowship the guy who was shacked up with his father's wife (possibly stepmother is implied), but never did Paul say he lost his redemption but instead affirmed the his soul would be saved.  

You insist on putting conditions on justification that person who is justified by Yeshua has to maintain it.  It is basically saying that Yeshua's redemption isn't sufficient.   Well, if it eternal life can be lost, then it wasn't eternal to begin with.  And if that is the case, then Yeshua was a liar.  We know that is not true.

Now there are rewards that can be gained, or lost, depending on the faithfulness to Yeshua's calling.   But justification is not earned.  It is a free gift for all those who place their trust in Him.  Anything else is a corruption of the Gospel.  

And justification is the "proper attire".  Remember, Yeshua also said this.....

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 3:23 (NKJV) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1 John 5:13 (NKJV) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

John 5:24 (NKJV) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, OldCoot said:

You are still confusing justification with sanctification.  

I am doing no such thing.

You seem intelligent enough to understand my question, (many others who have been asked this understand it) but you immediately go off topic.

Let me try once again: IT IS ABOUT THE TIMING. Rev 19 shows the bride being given her new attire. It is at the time when Jesus is in the sky on the white horse. Pre trib demands that 7 yrs earlier the bride should have already acquired such garment. This also falsifies pre trib because one cannot "enter in" without the proper garment, and it is shown being granted/given at the END, not before. 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

I am doing no such thing.

You seem intelligent enough to understand my question, (many others who have been asked this understand it) but you immediately go off topic.

Let me try once again: IT IS ABOUT THE TIMING. Rev 19 shows the bride being given her new attire. It is at the time when Jesus is in the sky on the white horse. Pre trib demands that 7 yrs earlier the bride should have already acquired such garment. This also falsifies pre trib because one cannot "enter in" without the proper garment, and it is shown being granted/given at the END, not before. 

The story where you are getting the "proper attire" from does not have anything to do with the bride.  The parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22) is not talking about the bride at all. The bride has already been with Yeshua and is being given new linen for the wedding feast in Revelation 19.   And it is the believers that make up the bride, not the guests.  The father of the son in the parable of the wedding feast is not searching out for a bride for the son.  It is for guests to the wedding feast.... those who make it thru the tribulation period and they either have accepted Yeshua  as the true Messiah or they are forever condemned.  They have the proper "garment" of the covering of the blood of Yeshua and are considered righteous.

It ties into the parable of the maidens of Matthew 25 and the sheep and goat judgement in the same chapter.  Neither of which have anything to do with the bride either.  

The point is the the 1st century marriage ritual procedure.

1) the groom proposes to the potential bride. (she is approached at her home and offered the invitation to marry)

2) the deal is settled and they seal it by sharing a cup of wine (this occurred at the last supper)

3) The groom pays the bride price for her (the death of Yeshua on the cross)

4) He returns to his father's place to prepare the wedding chamber for them.  (see John 14)

5) Before the groom can go get his bride, the father must approve of the wedding chuppah.  If anyone asks the groom when the wedding will be, all he can answer is "only my father knows".

6) Once the father approves, then the groom can go retrieve his bride.  The bride must always be ready for she never knows when the groom would come. He usually arrives by night and calls out to the bride. She then comes out of her house to meet him.  He does not go in the house.  Just as Yeshua will not come down to earth but we will meet him in the air and be with him (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

7) they both return to the chupah and stay there for 7 days.  The marriage is consummated.  The invitation to the wedding feast is sent out.  After the 7 days, they both emerge and the wedding feast begins.   Since the guests also did not know when the father would approve of the chuppah, this 7 days allows them to prepare and be ready for the wedding feast when the groom and bride emerge from the chuppah.  Likewise, after the removal of the bride (church) by Yeshua and they go to the wedding chuppah (at the father's place), the people of the earth have 7 years to prepare for the groom and bride emerging and the wedding feast to begin. 

This 1st century Hebrew wedding procedure is well documented by many historians.  Alfred Edersheim and Arnold Fruchtenbaum, both Jewish believers in Yeshua, have documented this extensively.    Since Yeshua was so fond of referring to the wedding, it should be the focus of the believers to learn of the wedding ritual that Yeshua referenced.  

Our modern, western mindset gets in the way sometimes on these things.  If you want to know the little nuances of what the Hebrew scripture records of what the Hebrew Messiah is saying, then learn the Hebrew rituals of the time in which He spoke.

Revelation 19 has nothing to do with the wedding feast and who is able to attend.  It is about the groom and bride emerging from the marriage chuppah and the wedding feast starting.  You are mixing groups... The bride and those who come thru the tribulation period who are the guests.

Edited June 29, 2019 by OldCoot

[Uriah]

Just now, OldCoot said:

The story where you are getting the "proper attire" from does not have anything to do with the bride.  The parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22) is not talking about the bride at all.  And it is the believers that make up the bride, not the guests.  The father of the son in the parable is not searching out for a bride for the son.  It is for guests to the wedding feast.

It ties into the parable of the maidens of Matthew 25 and the sheep and goat judgement in the same chapter.  Neither of which have anything to do with the bride either.  

The point is the the 1st century marriage ritual procedure.

1) the groom proposes to the potential bride. (she is approached at her home and offered the invitation to marry)

2) the deal is settled and they seal it by sharing a cup of wine (this occurred at the last supper)

3) The groom pays the bride price for her (the death of Yeshua on the cross)

4) He returns to his father's place to prepare the wedding chamber for them.  (see John 14)

5) Before the groom can go get his bride, the father must approve of the wedding chuppah.  If anyone asks the groom when the wedding will be, all he can answer is "only my father knows".

6) Once the father approves, then the groom can go retrieve his bride.  The bride must always be ready for she never knew when the groom would come. He usually arrives by night and calls out to the bride. She then comes out of her house to meet him.  He does not go in the house.  Just as Yeshua will not come down to earth but we will meet him in the air and be with him (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

7) they both return to the chupah and stay there for 7 days.  The marriage is consummated.  The invitation to the wedding feast is sent out.  After the 7 days, they both emerge and the wedding feast begins.   Since the guests also did not know when the father would approve of the chuppah, this 7 days allows them to prepare and be ready for the wedding feast when the groom and bride emerge from the chuppah.  Likewise, after the removal of the bride (church) by Yeshua and they go to the wedding chuppah (at the father's place), the people of the earth have 7 years to prepare for the groom and bride emerging and the wedding feast to begin. 

This 1st century Hebrew wedding procedure is well documented by many historians.  Alfred Edersheim and Arnold Fruchtenbaum, both Jewish believers in Yeshua, have documented this extensively.    Since Yeshua was so fond of referring to the wedding, it should be the focus of the believers to learn of the wedding ritual that Yeshua referenced.

I will address the new issues you raise after we get past your answering my question(s).

How can the bride be given her attire at the end if she already entered 7 yrs earlier? Does she get her attire twice? 

And while you answer that one, will you also explain the other one you avoided repeatedly?: How do those who are part of the great multitude that no man could number that no man could count, who resisted the mark of the beast as seen in Rev 20, who are alive and remain until the end, "get in" if the resurrection and rapture already happened 7 yrs earlier.

Please no more dodging.

[OldCoot]

16 minutes ago, Uriah said:

How can the bride be given her attire at the end if she already entered 7 yrs earlier? Does she get her attire twice? 

There is the attire of being ready for the groom when He comes for her.  The bride must always be ready. It is the righteousness that only comes from the redemption of Yeshua.    Then there is the the attire of the bride who is now the wife of Yeshua after they emerge from the Chuppah to the wedding feast and both rule and reign as one on the earth.   The bride has not been with the groom on a test period to see if it will work out and then she is considered righteous.  The marriage has been consummated during the 7 years. The groom and bride are now one flesh.  They are one in terms of ruling the earth as per Revelation 2:26-27.

You are confusing the resurrection of those who make up the bride, with those who are considered righteous and resurrected at Revelation 21. The OT saints and those who accepted Yeshua  and died during the tribulation period.  Neither of which are the bride.  

Edited June 29, 2019 by OldCoot