Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[JohnR7]

13 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Yes we pray for God's will to be done on earth as in heaven, however the new  sinless earth  (the kingdom of God) will come at Christ's second coming, also called " the day of the Lord"

We will find out soon enough. Don't be so sure Biden is going to win this election. 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

 

Again....these are not my words.

On 1/16/2020 at 2:42 PM, Behold said:

There is the Blood of Jesus that is not found in the Old Testament, that is a BIG Difference.

 

I also do not agree with those words. 'Behold' said those words, not me.

Please don't do this again.

 

[JohnR7]

On 12/26/2020 at 9:44 PM, Walter Goraj jr said:

Brother, he did not win this election. They stole it.

They meaning Obama Hillary & Biden. Obama wanted four more years and he wants to use Biden as his puppet. Most people believe that Trump will still get to serve four more years in 2024. 

[truth7t7]

On 12/23/2003 at 10:22 PM, whatsitmean said:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

 

It is starting to sound like it could be two events with an undisclosed time lapse between them to me. It wouldn't be the first time the Lord slipped in a time lapse.

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[transmogrified]

Hi...I'm Gary  - I posted this over on the other post trib forum, but thought I might as well post it here as well...I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point.

Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens.

So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...." 

So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up. 

So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead.

So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected. 

Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us. 

1) We shall not  all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens)

2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed)

3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment)

4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye) 

5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds)

Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur.

So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection.

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 

1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 

2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day.

So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.

 

So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day. Does this correlate according what both Paul and Jesus have said? No, it does not. They both said ALL believers would be resurrected at one time.

Pre-trib doctrine asserts that the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only refers to the believers from the time of Pentecost until the pre trib rapture, but does agree with what Jesus said in the first reference? No. The phrase 'All those who God has given me,' would not mean 'the believers that had died from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.' That would be a PART of those who God had given to Christ, but it would not be ALL those who God had given to Christ.

How many believers has God given to Christ?

John 17:9-10 "...I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine..."

Here Jesus is saying that all those that belong to God are his. In other words, Jesus is saying he will resurrect all God's people on the last day, for these are the one's he said that God gave to him. Do God's people consist of just those who have lived from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture? No, of course not. God's people have existed from the time of Adam and will continue to the end of this age. 

Lets look even further to see if the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only pertains to believers from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even saints who die in the tribulation are said to 'die in the Lord'

Rev. 14:12-13 "...Here is the patience of the saints...Blessed are the dead which 'die in the Lord from henceforth..." It is apparent that dying in the Lord is the same as dying in Christ, for Jesus is the Lord.

But lets look at some other scriptures to confirm what is being said. Who did Jesus say would be resurrected in John 5:28-29?

'...the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth; they THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life..."

Did he say the hour was coming in which those who have died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre trib rapture would be resurrected? No, again he said ALL those in the graves would be resurrected and he identified them as 'those who have done good..' Are the only saints who have done good the ones who died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre-trib rapture? No, of course not...all his saints are 'those who have done good, not just certain ones.

Lets look at some other scriptures  of what happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18

"The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." 

So first look that the seventh trumpet is called the time of the dead that they should be judged. The words 'the time of the dead,' means the time when all the dead will be resurrected. The words 'the dead' does not just mean the righteous dead, as anyone can see there are dead people who were good and there are dead people who were wicked. This is the same resurrection Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29...this is the time when ALL those who are the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...in other words, the time of the dead mentioned here is the resurrection of all the dead, both good and bad, and is also the time they will be judged as it says, the time of the dead that they should be judged.

But in the pre trib doctrine the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded. This is not true, as the scripture here states that it is at the seventh trumpet that all the saints will be rewarded as stated here:

Rev. 11:18 "....and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..."

So this is a completely different scenario than the pre-trib allegations. Here it states there is one resurrection at the seventh trumpet in which God would give reward unto:

1) His servants the prophets

2) And to the saints

3) To them that fear his name, small and great

Here we see the time frame for this resurrection to be at the seventh trumpet and we also see that this is not specific to a certain grouping of saints, but one that would include all the saints who were in the graves whether they were small or great, plus it includes the prophets which means it is not even restricted to New Testament saints, but from the time of Adam down to when this seventh trumpet sounds which is at the Second Coming, at the end of this age.

There are more scriptures that confirm this:

In Matthew 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He says let both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...He does not say 'let the tares grow until the end of the age but let the wheat be caught away before the end of the age. No, he says let them both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST.   Matthew 13:37-43 he gives the interpretation of it so we don't have to speculate as to what it means. He explains it here:

1) He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man

2) The field is the world

3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 

4) The tares are the children of the wicked one

5) The enemy that sowed the tares is the devil

6) The harvest is the end of the world (age)

So lets see how Jesus said this would play out in verse 40:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD.' (AGE) The word 'world' is better translated 'age' in that the world is not destroyed at the second coming. But notice that he specifically says the tares will be gathered and burned in the fire, not at the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be at the end of the  1000 year reign, but at the end of THIS AGE, which would be at the Second Coming. But also note that this is the same time the wheat is gathered into the barn as it says in verse 43 "THEN (at the same time) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father..."

So again we have a completely different scenario being depicted than that which is shown in the Pre trib doctrine.

We have here the wicked and the righteous being rewarded at the same time AT THE END OF THE AGE, whereas the pre-trib doctrine states that some saints have been rewarded BEFORE the end of the age, and no wicked are punished until the end of the NEXT AGE...which would be the end of the 1000 years.

So lets look at another scripture in Matt. 13:47

"Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered  of every kind; Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked form among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here again we have a scenario that is going to take place at the end of the age...not at the end of the next age. The distinction between 'this age' and 'the age which is to come' is shown when Jesus said they 'have no forgiveness in this age nor that which is  to come...' meaning they will have no forgiveness at the Second Coming or at the White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years. But continuing on here notice what happens:

1) The net is let down one time and one time only

2) It is not drawn to shore until is is full of good and bad fish

3) When it was drawn to shore the good were separated from the bad

So consider:

1) The pre-trib doctrine has a net that is let down one time before the tribulation to pick up PART of the good fish, i.e. only those who have lived and died from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture.

2)Then at the end of the tribulation the net is let down again to gather up another PART of the good fish which allegedly consists of the Old Testament saints.

3)They have no net let down for any bad fish until the end of the age to come, which is at the end of the 1000 years.

There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth.

Jesus said the net was let down only one time...pre-trib says the net was let down 3 times.  Jesus said this net was let down once at the end of the age...pre trib has a net before the end of the age, another one at the end of the age, and another one at the end of the 1000 years. Pre trib has no separation of the good and bad fish at the end of this age, for they believe no wicked will be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

  There are many other scriptures to look at, but this post is probably too long already....Bless you all- Gary 

 

[Joulre2abba]

On 12/24/2021 at 10:45 PM, transmogrified said:

There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth.

That is exactly right. There is no resemblance because there isn't supposed to be. But the post-Trib doctrine mistakenly merges what Jesus said to a Jewish audience living still by the OT laws & promises with the mystery revelations that Paul said to the NT Gentile Christian Church that did not exist when Jesus was on the earth.

So the post-Trib doctrine erroneously has the NT believers on the earth all during the seven year Tribulation. While the pre-Trib doctrine rightly has the NT believers in heaven all during the seven year Tribulation.

Paul said that the man of sin (the anti-christ) cannot be revealed until "he which restrains is taken out". The reference is to the NT believers being raptured out.. not of the Holy Spirit leaving because He's still needed for many others left on earth to be saved. The saints mentioned in Revelation that are on the earth during the Tribulation are only those who've gotten saved after the pre-Trib rapture occurred.

Paul said the phrase twice (2 Thes.2:6,7) so that noone will misunderstand it but still the post-Trib holders do. They believe that the antichrist will be on the earth at the same time that the Church of the age of grace will be. Even though the Tribulation is the end of the age of grace.. and so the church of that age- as Paul wrote of- must not be on the earth during the Tribulation. (1 Thes.5:9)

Also - - The pre-Trib doctrine does not have part of believers raptured at one time and another part later. The pre-Trib doctrine wouldn't be a pre-trib doctrine if it had part raptured later.

The pre-Trib is a topic of eschatology which includes what's mentioned in the book of Revelation.. in that regard pre-Trib doctrine believers recognize that other raptures (Rev.12:5) occur during the Tribulation.. however that does not make such occurrence an inclusion of the pre-Trib rapture doctrine as you have stated it in a merged fashion.. it just makes it an eschatological mid-Trib rapture. 

The pre-Trib doctrine does not say that there is resurrection at the seventh trump, the post-Trib doctrine does. Apparently you are unconsciously giving your doctrine while trying to reference the pre-Trib doctrine.

The bema seat occurs in heaven after all NT believers (Rom.14:10) have been raptured or there by martyrdom out of the Tribulation. It is different than the Great White Throne Judgement in that it only involves the Believers.. and all are rewarded, only their wrong works are burned up... no believer is judged in sin and sent to hell.  

Mat.13:47 is only referring to Rev.20:11-15 The Great White Throne Judgement. They are judged for their sins and sent to hell (Mat.7:15-23)

[transmogrified]

 

5 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Also - - The pre-Trib doctrine does not have part of believers raptured at one time and another part later. The pre-Trib doctrine wouldn't be a pre-trib doctrine if it had part raptured later.

 

Hello- Thanks for getting back with me...I didn't mean to imply that there was a rapture  before the tribulation for part of the saints and another rapture later...what I was saying that Pre Trib alleges there to be a resurrection of part of the saints pre trib and another resurrection of the rest of the saints after the tribulation. 

On 12/24/2021 at 8:45 PM, transmogrified said:

So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day.

Do you believe the saints from Pentecost are resurrected before the tribulation and then the Old Testament saints resurrected after the tribulation?

[Joulre2abba]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:25 PM, transmogrified said:

 

Hello- Thanks for getting back with me...I didn't mean to imply that there was a rapture  before the tribulation for part of the saints and another rapture later...what I was saying that Pre Trib alleges there to be a resurrection of part of the saints pre trib and another resurrection of the rest of the saints after the tribulation. 

I know what you meant, but by your words of attempting to clarify.. you have not actually given a difference but in two sentences have merely repeated the exact same words.

The pre-trib rapture term does mean that it happens before the 7 year tribulation. There is no partial gathering of saints of pre-trib rapture but all from the church age - what we now are in - are raptured at that future time.

The beginning of the Tribulation is the end of the church age. But the post-trib doctrine states that Christians will be on the earth during the Tribulation. When they say "Christians" they mean those of the church age. They believe that because they mistakenly apply text concerning the Jews and the Tribulation saints to the church age Christians.

The lack of use of terms by others of different doctrine have caused the confusion.. either in ignorance or on purpose to make the pre-trib doctrine to seem exegetically illogical. The post-tribbers apply their merging of events style of thinking that they use in their post-trib doctrine as they report what they think are errors of the pre-trib doctrine.

However the pre-Trib doctrine rightly divides the eschatological verses while the post-Trib doctrine does not.

[Joulre2abba]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:25 PM, transmogrified said:

Do you believe the saints from Pentecost are resurrected before the tribulation and then the Old Testament saints resurrected after the tribulation?

According to a rightly divided eschatology.. At the resurrection-ascension of Jesus all of the old testament and gospel saints who died were resurrected-ascended with Christ because they believed in a Messiah/Savior to come.

All those believers alive from the day of resurrection of Jesus and Pentecost onwards include we at this present time are all of the church age who will be pre-Trib resurrection-raptured.

Those saints to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation do reign with Christ along with all pre-Trib resurrected-raptured old and new testament church age saints who reign with Christ during the Millennium.

All others resurrected are those who ever lived and died in sin who are judged and condemned.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Those saints to be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation do reign with Christ along with all pre-Trib resurrected-raptured old and new testament church age saints who reign with Christ during the Millennium.

Who are the saints that would be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?