Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I agree. Not about the 'church age', but otherwise...yes.

Again, I agree. This is fun!

 

Interesting.

Which marker, specifically? I'll need chapter and verse to look at it.

 

Preterist tendencies? What will you say when the two witnesses appear in Jerusalem?

I can only go so far here and no further. It's either general martyrdom or the manner of death. I'm going with the latter for a few reasons.

In looking at 20 some translations they are vague as to exactly what is meant. Generally it's, " were killed just as they had been." The NLT is, " who were to be martyred" It's obvious we are seeing martyrdom here. From the first mention it's clear: "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld"

So it's not general martyrdom in my mind. Martyrdom is dying for a belief, the manner of death isn't part of that. No one has to die a specific death to become a martyr, they just have to die upholding their belief. So why say, "were killed just as they had been"? Seem redundant, yes?

I hold the Word to be precise in relating all concepts. What is said is said specifically and precisely with a purpose for every word, especially so any prophetic utterance. It sticks out "were killed just as they had been" was said at all since the reason for the martyrdom and what was being upheld by the martyrs was made clear in v 9; they died for Jesus. 

"Killed like they were" then is manner of death, not the death of the martyr.

 

Preterist tendencies? No, because the church today is waiting at the 5th seal  - martyrs of the church age - for that final church age martyr.

"Killed as they were" I don't believe is talking about the manner of death. It is talked about the category: are they church age martyrs (one category) or 70th week martyrs (a different category)? I meditated on this for months asking God the meaning. I believe God's intent is that these are church age martyrs.

This fits perfectly with the context. There are things many miss in chapters 4 & 5 that Jesus asked me. I don't mean I ate too much pizza the night before, or I had a dream. I was wide awake and I heard Jesus' voice and His words. 

I had been stuck on John weeping much and had been asking God why He chose to include that in this great book. Here is what He said.

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be?”

 I answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that question!” He continued:

 “Why in the search for one found worthy to break the seals - that John watched end in failure, was ‘no man found?’ If you read ahead, you will see that I was found.”  Again I answered:

 “Lord, I cannot answer that question either.” He continued:

 “You will notice that in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit is in the throne room, yet I said, ‘when I go up, I will send Him down.’ Why is the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, in chapter 4?  Again I said that I could not answer.

God showed John EXACTLY what He wanted John to see: a throne room with the main character missing or not seen, a search for one worthy that failed and the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room. I puzzled over these questions for some time.

 I spent perhaps another few weeks mediating on chapters 4 & 5, trying to find the answers to these questions. I prayed in the spirit, I meditated, I prayer more, meditated more, but could not answer His questions. Finally, the Lord took pity on my slowness, and spoke again: “Go study chapter 12.”

 When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “now you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him.

 I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses! Jesus ascended about the same time He gave the great commission - to take the gospel to the world.

The first seal then, in context, must be the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2-4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel - hold it within the one fourth of the earth God allowed Satan to work in using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts.

Satan was not about to stand aside and allow the gospel to go everywhere with a great battle, so martyrs were killed. This is the 5th seal.

7th seal officially begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week.

 

[WilliamL]

On 6/26/2022 at 10:07 AM, iamlamad said:

the church today is waiting at the 5th seal  - martyrs of the church age - for that final church age martyr.

We are not yet at the 5th Seal.

For just one example, fer shur the 4th Seal has not yet been opened, let alone completed. And truthfully, neither have the first 3.

Because all the Seals take place during the Trib, and we fer shur aren't in it yet.

15. Matthew 24:4-31 Is a Two-Part Prophecy

Explains why Matt. 24:4-14 and Matt. 24:15-31 are two separate but closely related prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1060-matthew-244-31-is-a-two-part-prophecy/

 

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

We are not yet at the 5th Seal.

For just one example, fer shur the 4th Seal has not yet been opened, let alone completed. And truthfully, neither have the first 3.

Because all the Seals take place during the Trib, and we fer shur aren't in it yet.

15. Matthew 24:4-31 Is a Two-Part Prophecy

Explains why Matt. 24:4-14 and Matt. 24:15-31 are two separate but closely related prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1060-matthew-244-31-is-a-two-part-prophecy/

 

It's OK if you disagree.  I follow the written text as closely as possible. John wrote near the beginning of the church age (perhaps 95 AD) but many today imagine it was written for the end time church and ignore what the early readers must have thought. (it is really written more for Israel since 9 chapters cover THEIR 70th week.)

I am going to stick with what Jesus taught me.  He used scripture.

Anyone can invent some reason why John did not immediately see Jesus at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4. Some have suggested He was hiding or somewhere else. Jesus told me He was NOT THERE because that part of the vision was while He was on the earth or under the earth. 

Some questions to think about...

Would Jesus have been seen at the right hand of the Father while He was on earth?

 
Would Jesus have been found worthy to take the book and open the seals before He rose from the dead?

 

[WilliamL]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am going to stick with what Jesus taught me. 

Ah, but which Jesus?

Lots of people think they have seen and/or talked with a Jesus.

Funny thing is, they practically all disagree with each other, despite all their claims of truthfulness.

 

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

Ah, but which Jesus?

Lots of people think they have seen and/or talked with a Jesus.

Funny thing is, they practically all disagree with each other, despite all their claims of truthfulness.

 

I have stacks of books from people who have been to heaven and seen Jesus but were prayed back to their bodies. Their stories AGREE with each other.

However, you are free to believe what you will. We all are. However, I have heard His voice many times over my life. I KNOW His voice. He is my Lord. I am His sheep that knows HIs voice. 

[WilliamL]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 I have heard His voice many times over my life. I KNOW His voice. He is my Lord. I am His sheep that knows HIs voice. 

Your single-witness, self-testimony means nothing. Where is your second witness for the things you say?

Without one, you would best keep quiet about what you say you have heard, and let your Scriptural evidence alone testify for itself. Lest you mayhaps be found to be a false prophet.

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Your single-witness, self-testimony means nothing. Where is your second witness for the things you say?

Without one, you would best keep quiet about what you say you have heard, and let your Scriptural evidence alone testify for itself. Lest you mayhaps be found to be a false prophet.

The second witness is the very scriptures Jesus spoke about.

The very fact that you don't believe what He said is telling...

[Diaste]

On 6/26/2022 at 10:07 AM, iamlamad said:

Preterist tendencies? No, because the church today is waiting at the 5th seal  - martyrs of the church age - for that final church age martyr.

"Killed as they were" I don't believe is talking about the manner of death. It is talked about the category: are they church age martyrs (one category) or 70th week martyrs (a different category)? I meditated on this for months asking God the meaning. I believe God's intent is that these are church age martyrs.

This fits perfectly with the context. There are things many miss in chapters 4 & 5 that Jesus asked me. I don't mean I ate too much pizza the night before, or I had a dream. I was wide awake and I heard Jesus' voice and His words. 

I had been stuck on John weeping much and had been asking God why He chose to include that in this great book. Here is what He said.

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.

 Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be?”

 I answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that question!” He continued:

 “Why in the search for one found worthy to break the seals - that John watched end in failure, was ‘no man found?’ If you read ahead, you will see that I was found.”  Again I answered:

 “Lord, I cannot answer that question either.” He continued:

 “You will notice that in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit is in the throne room, yet I said, ‘when I go up, I will send Him down.’ Why is the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, in chapter 4?  Again I said that I could not answer.

God showed John EXACTLY what He wanted John to see: a throne room with the main character missing or not seen, a search for one worthy that failed and the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room. I puzzled over these questions for some time.

 I spent perhaps another few weeks mediating on chapters 4 & 5, trying to find the answers to these questions. I prayed in the spirit, I meditated, I prayer more, meditated more, but could not answer His questions. Finally, the Lord took pity on my slowness, and spoke again: “Go study chapter 12.”

 When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

 I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “now you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again.” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him.

 I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and at this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal.

Jesus ascended about the same time He gave the great commission - to take the gospel to the world.

The first seal then, in context, must be the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2-4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel - hold it within the one fourth of the earth God allowed Satan to work in using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts.

Satan was not about to stand aside and allow the gospel to go everywhere with a great battle, so martyrs were killed. This is the 5th seal.

7th seal officially begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week.

 

Yes. I remember all that from past discussions. 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Time is the true test. 

On 6/26/2022 at 10:07 AM, iamlamad said:

One cannot find 2000 years between these verses!

There isn't a 2000 year gap in all of the Revelation. Why are you finding one?

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have stacks of books from people who have been to heaven and seen Jesus but were prayed back to their bodies. Their stories AGREE with each other.

However, you are free to believe what you will. We all are. However, I have heard His voice many times over my life. I KNOW His voice. He is my Lord. I am His sheep that knows HIs voice. 

I would suppose the purpose of selling books was realized. 

So people are taken to heaven, meet the Lord Jesus, are sent back, then write a book and charge money for the book? 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would suppose the purpose of selling books was realized. 

So people are taken to heaven, meet the Lord Jesus, are sent back, then write a book and charge money for the book? 

That is the way it usually works. But so what? God delights in prospering His children. However, I know at least one person that printed on the cover of his book:  "This Book is never to be sold" or something like that.  I think my first book is free on some websites. 

It is also very probable that a second purpose was realized: others are blessed from their testimony.