Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

32 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

On 2/16/2023 at 9:24 AM,  farouk said: 

Hi Sir. It's interesting that 1 Cor. 11.26 speaks of the Lord's coming in relation to the church and not to any other entity.

That is a stretch.  The only thing this verse says is that the church observes communion, showing forth His death until He comes.  The verse does not say that the coming is for any particular group.  The Church is to remember the death of Christ until He comes.

Yes, that is a stretch.  1 Cor 15:23 tells us precisely who will be resurrected "when He comes", or the Second Advent;  "those who belong to Him", meaning every saved person from Adam on.

Every verse about the "coming of the Lord" refers to the second prophecy about His 2 advents.

[DeighAnn]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, the "rapture" is a biblical doctrine. It is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

Hi Retro,   

So far, no one have ever been able to show me how to go from this, to that.  Where is it you SEE pre trib anywhere is these verses?  Have you broken them down to the Greek and everything?   

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Is this or is this not CONCERNING those who have 'gone to sleep' from here, 

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And have they NOT, just like Jesus risen again and followed Him there?

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Which then moves on to those who will be ALIVE and REMAINING when He comes?

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And isn't that at the LAST TRUMP, the 2nd Advent?

Where do you FIND a 'direction' change from the 'descend' He is heading, to an 'ascending back to heaven'?   Why is He bringing all the souls with Him if He is just returning?  


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


IF both of the verses you quoted here are for PRE TRIB then what verses speak to the 2nd Advent?  


And it is at THAT TIME that

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Isn't that the exact same thing as 

 

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Which comes after 

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Which is basically the EXACT SAME TIME as 1 Thess and 1 Cor?


 

making any PRE TRIB impossible TO BE the TIMING? 

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It is also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.

Again, this alsojust backs up the same TIMING, doesn't it?  

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



HOW can any of these verses you have given here be pre trib?


Are they not all concerning those who HAVE DIED, as in Adam

who have been quickened and already risen, as in CHRIST

Following Him to where He is, as in Never die, having received the gift of Salvation

and returning with Him, 'and the armies of heaven' to sit upon the thrones as in Rev 20?

and aren't those who BELONG TO HIM the ALIVE AND REMAINING, those who have over come and endured to the end without taking the mark of the beast? 




 

[DeighAnn]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:29 AM, seeking the lost said:

That is the time that the dead in Crist are raised. 

Maybe you can answer this for me.  

How does one who never dies become one of the DEAD?  and when since as in Adam our mortal 'natural body dies' but in Christ our mortal spiritual body is quickened? 


And how do you deal with the dead who are raised from the corruption not becoming immortal until their names are found in the book of life?

And since the dead that are raised up are judged at the end are judged by WORKS and not faith, where did those who through faith never die go?

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Maybe you can answer this for me.  

How does one who never dies become one of the DEAD?  and when since as in Adam our mortal 'natural body dies' but in Christ our mortal spiritual body is quickened? 


And how do you deal with the dead who are raised from the corruption not becoming immortal until their names are found in the book of life?

And since the dead that are raised up are judged at the end are judged by WORKS and not faith, where did those who through faith never die go?

The dead in Christ are raised first then those who are alive and remain are caught up and changed in twinkling of an eye.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time the dead in Christ are raised.  This is according to the teaching of Jesus who taught that believers will be raised on the last day

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Maybe you can answer this for me.  

How does one who never dies become one of the DEAD?  and when since as in Adam our mortal 'natural body dies' but in Christ our mortal spiritual body is quickened? 


And how do you deal with the dead who are raised from the corruption not becoming immortal until their names are found in the book of life?

And since the dead that are raised up are judged at the end are judged by WORKS and not faith, where did those who through faith never die go?

That would depend on how one views death and life. I could be wrong but I think you are relying on John 11:25-26 for your position. This is the passage:

"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies."

As you can see in bold Jesus does not say 'never die' but 'even though he dies'.

The idea of 'never die' isn't here and cannot be even in what Jesus says next:

" 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. "

This is a continued thought in a progression of logic:

A person will die.

Through Jesus they will live.

If they then live in Jesus, they will never die.

So believers do die a physical death, Jesus will bring believers to life, and once brought to life by Jesus, only then they will never die.

The context for this is the previous verses 17-24.

Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that God will give You whatever You ask of Him.”

23“Your brother will rise again,” Jesus told her.

24Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Lazarus clearly died here. How could Martha say 'he will rise again' if Lazarus didn't die? 

The 'never die' idea is only once a believing person has died, then is resurrected, and then will have eternal life and never die. 

Even Jesus died and was resurrected. Jesus is God. But He died. He was an eternal being who always existed and yet He died a physical death, to be resurrected and live again forever. It's the same with us. We will die, we will be resurrected to live again, and only then 'never die'.

 

[Diaste]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:55 AM, choir loft said:

You seem to exhibit the misdirected attitude that the doctrines of man are divine.  They aren't.  The doctrines of rapture & millenium are all concepts of the western church. Indeed they are further restricted to American evangelicals and no other.

These doctrines are NOT canonized scripture.  

Please keep this in mind as we proceed to examine them.  As non-canonical interpretations they are subject to review approval and/or rejection if not outright mockery.  For the most part only a very small segment of Christendom accepts the rapture dogma as binding upon their faith.  The rest see it as either an academic exercise, as divisive ideas or for the pure nonsense it really is.

The word rapture appears nowhere in Holy Writ.  

The return of messiah is first mentioned in Daniel and then in the NT.  That HE shall descend upon the earth with power and authority isn't the issue here.  Many Jews look forward to the coming of Messiah as well as most Christians.  So do I.  The issue, which has become clouded by false interpretations, is WHEN.

Rapture dogma has been linked by Christian tradition to a more intellectually acceptable doctrine called the millenium.  A political reign of Christ upon the earth for one thousand years has been discussed by church theologians from the first centuries of its licensed existence.  Events of the early twentieth century proved most of their interpretations to be falsification.  

There are three basic theories of the millenium and the return of Christ: pre mid and post returns of Christ.  

First is that Jesus will return to earth PRIOR to His reign of one thousand years.  Simply stated the interpretation assumes the whole world will have been persuaded of the gospel of Christ before His advent.  This theory neglects Jesus' own words that global persuasion wouldn't happen. (Matt 7:13) The pre-millenial theory also denies the fact of history.  By WWI it was generally admitted by most Christian theologians that the entire world would NOT be persuaded to join the church.  The pre-millenial 2nd advent of Christ has been generally  abandoned by legitimate theologians.

Second is that Jesus will return to earth DURING a seven year period of terrible conflict and Jewish persecution called the Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).  

This seven year period was defined and predicted by the prophet Daniel.  The flaw in the sequence of expectations is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.  

Jeremiah said it would primarily affect Jews. Daniel said it would last 7 years.  Jesus said it would happen ONLY ONCE.  (Mark 13:19)

The period known as THE HOLOCAUST fulfills these prophecies to the letter.  It lasted 7 years from 1938 to 1945.  It affected Jews as no other persecution has ever done.  If Jesus is considered to be an authority we may rest assured it will NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.   Therefore predictions that a mid Tribulation advent of Jesus Christ with or without a 'rapture' are mistaken.

This leaves us with the third interpretation of the advent of Christ - at the end of one thousand years of devastation upon the earth.  Such interpretations become far too complex to discuss here.  It's sufficient to state that such interpretations are so convoluted and confused that even those who give them credence do not do so whole heartedly.

Does this mean the Lord will not return to us?  Indeed no.  He WILL return as HE promised.  Our problem is that human understanding is limited in scope as well as severely affected by the agendas of those who profit (not prophet) from personal aggrandizement when they make heated assertions of their own.

At its most basic point the rapture is a doctrine of cowards.  Although its linked to the millennium in the minds of many these links are tenuous at best.  The Bible nowhere states that God will REMOVE His people from trouble.  Indeed it promises over and over again that He will walk with them through it - by faith.  Therefore the rapture is also a demonic doctrine that subverts faith itself.  More can be written about this aspect, but for now its sufficient to say that its bogus.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Dang, who hurt you, bro?

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The dead in Christ are raised first then those who are alive and remain are caught up and changed in twinkling of an eye.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time the dead in Christ are raised.  This is according to the teaching of Jesus who taught that believers will be raised on the last day

Are you saying when the natural body dies (the first death), that we are NOT raised up to continue on living in heaven in our spiritual body?




 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

That would depend on how one views death and life. I could be wrong but I think you are relying on John 11:25-26 for your position. This is the passage:

"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies."

As you can see in bold Jesus does not say 'never die' but 'even though he dies'.

The idea of 'never die' isn't here and cannot be even in what Jesus says next:

" 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. "

 

26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.


So I BELIEVE IT GOES EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN

THAT NOT ONLY 20But now is Christ risen from the dead,


BUT ALSO and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


I ALSO BELIEVE 21For since by man came death,

I CONTINUE ON TO BELIEVE by man came also the resurrection of the dead.



SO I UNDERSTAND THAT THE EARTHEN VESSEL BREAKS  as you pointed out  'EVEN THOUGH HE DIES' as in

22For as in Adam all die,

as ALL NATURAL BODIES HAVE A 'SHELF LIFE', AND THIS FIRST BODY WILL DIE
(IT returns to dust, but don't worry)


BECAUSE  NONE OF THE 2nd body, the SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT of one already 'come to life' WILL ever descend into HELL, LET ALONE BE DESTROYED IN HELL.  


AND I don't stop there but continue on to believe what is written AFTER THAT SO

I BELIEVE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE,
HAVE ALREADY DIED,
HAVE ALREADY RISEN,
HAVE BECOME A NEW CREATURE,
HAVE RECEIVED THEIR CITIZENSHIP IN HEAVEN,

having been baptized NOW

follow Him, NEVER DYING, just as He said because they

KNOW THE WAY
and THE LIFE 
and THE RESURRECTION

and being RAISED UP IN THE SPIRITUAL BODY, exactly as written

FOLLOW HIM TO THE PLACE HE IS,

MADE POSSIBLE by the NEW COVENANT

that the shedding of His blood brought ABOUT

AND HIS WORK ON THE CROSS and IN THE GRAVE, where He went for 3 days to preach to those 'WHO SLEPT' and being held captive by death, 'paying the wages', set them free

SHOWN to be true by the 'graves opening up and the bodies being seen'

along with what also is WRITTEN when He ascended He led the captivity (the formerly captive to death) to heaven (you know the 144,000 and the MULTITUDES too numerous to count having been sealed)

And now US, under the New Covenant don't come into condemnation but have already passed from death to life

and now AT THE DEATH OF OUR ADAM FLESH 

HIS BLOOD WASHES US aka our spiritual body/soul/spirit clean

and instead of descending into the CORRUPTION we RISE and follow Him 

where HE comes to meet us, HIMSELF, and brings us to GOD, where we sit at the judgment seat of CHRIST which is for the LIVING (not the GWTJ which is for THE DEAD)

because He ALREADY GOT the KEYS TO HELL AND DEATH.  

ONLY 'the dead' now descend into hell, death, the grave, the corruption of the earth.   THE DEAD have no knowledge of the way, or the resurrection.  They go to their 'baptism' in hell, and they REMAIN DEAD in hell because they DON'T FOLLOW HIM, they WAIT for His return.  

YOU SEE they DID NOT receive the gift of salvation.  The gift that KEEPS US FROM THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION that the DEAD are not kept from.  THE DEAD are paying the wages of sin AND GOD doesn't hear them.  


THE LIVING GO TO BE WITH THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND can not go to be amongst the dead as HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD




WE HAVE NO WAGES OF SIN TO PAY TO DEATH AND WE KNOW ALL THAT IS TRUE BECAUSE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN NEXT....  


even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



SO THERE IS NO 'LAST DAY' resurrection OF THE LIVING 'ALL AT THE SAME TIME'
THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN


it is a last day resurrection is EXACTLY as it is WRITTEN of the DEAD, both the just and the unjust DEAD. 

There is no such thing as AN UNJUST 'LIVING' SOUL.

There are those who DEMAND every time they can, the 'resurrection of 'BOTH' doesn't come at the same time but COME 1000 years apart, but that VOIDS out the words of God all over the place starting with the verses that all say there IS A RESURRECTION OF BOTH the just and the unjust

and we read of 'death, hell and the sea' giving up the rest of the dead,

BUT ONLY AFTER the dead who were raised when Christ returned are judged 


We should not try and make GOD a respecter of persons, nor to divide what God brings together by saying 'this group of believers will rule and reign, but this one won't, 


because it is written,

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So God wouldn't do that.




The resurrection the LIVING is different than the resurrection of the DEAD in that 

the living follow Him

and that happens many times over by

23But every man in his own order:

and not all at ONCE, like the DEAD at His return.


Christ the firstfruits;

AND WHEN HE RETURNS, THE ALIVE AND REMAING are, those who are HIS, and are those who are changed.  


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[farouk]

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.


So I BELIEVE IT GOES EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN

THAT NOT ONLY 20But now is Christ risen from the dead,


BUT ALSO and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


I ALSO BELIEVE 21For since by man came death,

I CONTINUE ON TO BELIEVE by man came also the resurrection of the dead.



SO I UNDERSTAND THAT THE EARTHEN VESSEL BREAKS  as you pointed out  'EVEN THOUGH HE DIES' as in

22For as in Adam all die,

as ALL NATURAL BODIES HAVE A 'SHELF LIFE', AND THIS FIRST BODY WILL DIE
(IT returns to dust, but don't worry)


BECAUSE  NONE OF THE 2nd body, the SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT of one already 'come to life' WILL ever descend into HELL, LET ALONE BE DESTROYED IN HELL.  


AND I don't stop there but continue on to believe what is written AFTER THAT SO

I BELIEVE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE,
HAVE ALREADY DIED,
HAVE ALREADY RISEN,
HAVE BECOME A NEW CREATURE,
HAVE RECEIVED THEIR CITIZENSHIP IN HEAVEN,

having been baptized NOW

follow Him, NEVER DYING, just as He said because they

KNOW THE WAY
and THE LIFE 
and THE RESURRECTION

and being RAISED UP IN THE SPIRITUAL BODY, exactly as written

FOLLOW HIM TO THE PLACE HE IS,

MADE POSSIBLE by the NEW COVENANT

that the shedding of His blood brought ABOUT

AND HIS WORK ON THE CROSS and IN THE GRAVE, where He went for 3 days to preach to those 'WHO SLEPT' and being held captive by death, 'paying the wages', set them free

SHOWN to be true by the 'graves opening up and the bodies being seen'

along with what also is WRITTEN when He ascended He led the captivity (the formerly captive to death) to heaven (you know the 144,000 and the MULTITUDES too numerous to count having been sealed)

And now US, under the New Covenant don't come into condemnation but have already passed from death to life

and now AT THE DEATH OF OUR ADAM FLESH 

HIS BLOOD WASHES US aka our spiritual body/soul/spirit clean

and instead of descending into the CORRUPTION we RISE and follow Him 

where HE comes to meet us, HIMSELF, and brings us to GOD, where we sit at the judgment seat of CHRIST which is for the LIVING (not the GWTJ which is for THE DEAD)

because He ALREADY GOT the KEYS TO HELL AND DEATH.  

ONLY 'the dead' now descend into hell, death, the grave, the corruption of the earth.   THE DEAD have no knowledge of the way, or the resurrection.  They go to their 'baptism' in hell, and they REMAIN DEAD in hell because they DON'T FOLLOW HIM, they WAIT for His return.  

YOU SEE they DID NOT receive the gift of salvation.  The gift that KEEPS US FROM THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION that the DEAD are not kept from.  THE DEAD are paying the wages of sin AND GOD doesn't hear them.  


THE LIVING GO TO BE WITH THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND can not go to be amongst the dead as HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD




WE HAVE NO WAGES OF SIN TO PAY TO DEATH AND WE KNOW ALL THAT IS TRUE BECAUSE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN NEXT....  


even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



SO THERE IS NO 'LAST DAY' resurrection OF THE LIVING 'ALL AT THE SAME TIME'
THAT ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN


it is a last day resurrection is EXACTLY as it is WRITTEN of the DEAD, both the just and the unjust DEAD. 

There is no such thing as AN UNJUST 'LIVING' SOUL.

There are those who DEMAND every time they can, the 'resurrection of 'BOTH' doesn't come at the same time but COME 1000 years apart, but that VOIDS out the words of God all over the place starting with the verses that all say there IS A RESURRECTION OF BOTH the just and the unjust

and we read of 'death, hell and the sea' giving up the rest of the dead,

BUT ONLY AFTER the dead who were raised when Christ returned are judged 


We should not try and make GOD a respecter of persons, nor to divide what God brings together by saying 'this group of believers will rule and reign, but this one won't, 


because it is written,

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So God wouldn't do that.




The resurrection the LIVING is different than the resurrection of the DEAD in that 

the living follow Him

and that happens many times over by

23But every man in his own order:

and not all at ONCE, like the DEAD at His return.


Christ the firstfruits;

AND WHEN HE RETURNS, THE ALIVE AND REMAING are, those who are HIS, and are those who are changed.  


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

@DeighAnn It's all about walking in newness of life, right?

I love how Hebrews speaks of our living, Great High Priest Who is passed into the heavens and 'ever liveth to make intercession' (Hebrews 7.25) for His people..........

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, farouk said:

@DeighAnn It's all about walking in newness of life, right?

I love how Hebrews speaks of our living, Great High Priest Who is passed into the heavens and 'ever liveth to make intercession' (Hebrews 7.25) for His people..........

Yes, in which the victory over death has already been accomplished for those who have received the gift,  and so have been saved from death and destruction, so never die nor descend to the place of the dead!!! 

I don't think that there is an understanding of what DEATH as in Adam means in relation to the two bodies.

As in Adam means all natural bodies have a shelf life.  Our first body carries us though this 'alive on earth' time and then it dies.  


As in Christ means we all have a spiritual body too.  (the Lord of both the living and the dead)

For the SAVED we are raised up in the spiritual body as we have already had our baptism and so have already died and been raised up, and now just go home to heaven

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.


For the UNSAVED, they descend, in their spiritual body and now they have their 'baptism' but it is unto death and the corruption of the earth.  They remain in the corruption of hell until Christ returns.  They don't follow Him at all, they have to wait for the last day.  

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

How many people think that the rich man talking to Lazarus after they had both died are speaking to each other in this earthen flesh body?  We see one buried and one taken to heaven.  They have move on to the 'unseen' world.  The 'spiritual' realm, no less real and physical, just unseen to us presently.  

We have seen graves opened and there is no life in the carcass that once housed our spirit/souls.  And there never will be again.