Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Fraught]

I'm not sure a "timeline" is warranted or needed, the key events are: 1) the removal of the Church, and the special ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Church Age, 2) the revealing of the "man of sin" who will seduce the world by means of peace, the onset of Daniel's 70th week, beginning with the peace treaty between Israel and her hostile Arab neighbors, the supernatural conversion of 144,000 Jews, and the rise of many many false Christs performing signs and wonders (the revealing of the supernatural)

great read

http://www.amazon.com/Because-Time-Near-Jo...2483&sr=1-2

this is where your logic is destined to fall apart. can you really see a peace treaty happening in light of the events of our day?

[eric]

yzf-r1

I've been at it for 20+ years, how long have you studied it? I don't claim to have all the answers, but I have a pretty good grasp of the major themes

me?....over twenty years and I was once foolish to believe pre trib, until my eyes were opened to the truth. You say you don't claim to have all the answers, well you're right, you don't, and I have yet to meet anyone who has. So I'll leave it at that.

Have a good day and be blessed.

--------------------

[OneLight]

good read

http://www.biblebb.com/files/RAPTURE.HTM

I read the article and one of the references points to 2 Thess. 2:2-3, but i found this in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (King James Version):

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

This clearly states that, from the words of Paul, that "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;". How can you say that the rapture is before this? I really don't understand how you can say this and back it up scripturally.

[OneLight]

over twenty years and I was once foolish to believe pre trib, until my eyes were opened to the truth

ha...I've heard this type of high brow stuff many times before; too bad they couldn't logically defend their position, either

the bottom line is you can't force fit the Church into Daniel's 70th Week alotted to the Jews...and the "escapist" stuff is a nothing but a strawman

I firmly believe many professing "Christians" in 2007 won't be in the Rapture, because they aren't truly walking with the Lord, and are instead self-deceived...in other words, the number taken out may be far smaller than some may think

If they are not raptured, then they are not saved. Jesus says that He will come back for His for those who are saved. Who can say who is saved and who is not, but God?

You say you don't claim to have all the answers, well you're right, you don't, and I have yet to meet anyone who has

agreed...but until we meet the Lord and all is revealed, I'll stick with the authoritative verse-by-verse teaching of John MacArthur and others like him

Authoritative?? The only authoritative teaching is found in the Bible.

same to you, bro...unlike shlomo, I don't consider this a salvation issue

That is not what you said above ... ?

[OneLight]

This clearly states that, from the words of Paul, that "that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;". How can you say that the rapture is before this? I really don't understand how you can say this and back it up scripturally.

this issue goes back to p. 23 (post 229)

The Day of the Lord occurs at the conclusion of the Tribulation, both the rapture of the Church and the revelaing of the antichrist will occur about seven years before that time. The Day of the Lord and the rapture are distinct events, and cannot occur at the same time: Christ returns physically to the earth, to the Mount of Olives, in judgment at the Day of the Lord, described in Zechariah 14, and the saints are WITH HIM...by contrast the saints meet the Lord in the air in the rapture...they are not the same

2 Thessalonians 2:1

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

This is not the Day of the Lord, meaning "His Second Coming". This is the rapture for Paul states clearly "by our gathering together unto him,". I don't see how you can confuse this.

[OneLight]

If they are not raptured, then they are not saved.

really?

in fact, the vast majority of Tribulation saints will be martyred for their faith

Revelation 13

He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

and notice that little phrase "...let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches" is absent...because the Church isn't there!

I have to admit, I've never had my words twisted on this site like you just twisted them. Am I to expect this from you every time I question you? Why didn't you include your words that I was referring to instead of making a sharp turn to scripture that had nothing to do with my statement?

Allow me to remind you of your own words from post #250: "I firmly believe many professing "Christians" in 2007 won't be in the Rapture, because they aren't truly walking with the Lord, and are instead self-deceived...in other words, the number taken out may be far smaller than some may think"

If they are not in the Rapture, then they are not saved, for Jesus is coming back for His Church ... All those who are saved at that time. This is totally different then those who will accept Christ after the rapture. And about your statement about the "Christians" in 2007, I ask you again ... Who can say who is saved and who is not, but God? By what authority do you claim to be able to say this? If you are talking about the falling away Paul spoke of, then refer to Paul so others will not accuse you of playing God.

that is not what you said above ...

?

belief in a pre-Trib rapture has little to do with one's standing with the Lord, it's simply a question of eschatology

You did not state in your post if it were pre-trib or not. You only stated rapture, so like our brother shlomo, you must consider this a salvation issue.

[OneLight]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/RAPTURE.HTM

key point

Distinction between Israel and the Church The more one recognizes the biblical distinction between Israel and the church, the clearer one will be able to see God's distinct plan for each group. According to Thomas Ice, "If Israel and the church are not distinguished, then there is no basis for seeing a future for Israel or for the church as a new and unique people of God. If Israel and the church are merged into a single program, then the Old Testament promises for Israel will never be fulfilled and are usually seen by replacement theologians as spiritually fulfilled by the church. The merging of Israel's destiny into the church not only makes into one what the Scriptures understand as two, but it also removes a need for future restoration of God's original elect people in order to fulfill literally His promise that they will one day be the head and not the tail (Deuteronomy 28:13).

The more that believers see a distinct plan for Israel and a distinct plan for the church, the more they realize that when the New Testament speaks to the church it is describing a separate destiny and hope for her. The church becomes more distinct in the plan of God. Israel's future includes the seven-year tribulation, and then shortly before Christ's return to Jerusalem she will be converted to Jesus as her Messiah. . . . On the other hand, the distinct hope for the church is Christ's any-moment return.

Thus, a distinction between Israel and the church, as taught in the Bible, provides a basis of support for the pretribulational rapture. Those who merge the two programs cannot logically support the biblical arguments for pretribulationism. (Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, The Truth About The Rapture, pp. 25-26)

I printed the whole thing so I can study it. I don't take man's word alone when it comes to the Bible. I take the time to check what they say to God's Word. I do agree that the church and Israel are separate, concerning the rapture and the Second Coming.

I tried to see if they mentioned what is the beginning of the tribulation, but could not find it. What do you consider is the beginning of the tribulation?

[OneLight]

OK, yzf-r1, I have lost respect for you. You should run for Governmental office for you twist things as well as they do and dodge question as well, also. If you had taken the time to really read, and understand what I said, you would not be chopping my questions/statements apart, but rather, replying with respect to the thread. I truly question why you do this.

[Fraught]

Dear Yzf-r1 - i am not going to get drawn into debating your dispensational theories but i hope you will consider one thing:

can you really believe that schlomo, onelight, myself and others on this board are arguing this mid or post trib stand because we like it?? what person would not prefer that the pre-trib position is the true one?

i beg you to take a moment to just consider why we argue this. it is from a true love of the body and a fear that they will not be prepared. Jesus said be ready. Jesus said watch.

surely you can assume we would prefer to be snatched up? we would prefer to be convinced? but we cannot, we must watch!

[OneLight]

My think this was my first post on this subject:

I tried to read through this thread to understand what others believe about when the rapture will come, but found myself wondering why so much had been eliminated by sending emails instead of posting. Too bad for those of us who want to follow this thread.

With this said, I have to wonder if it really matters what people think about the timing of Jesus return? He is coming! Jesus told us to watch and be ready. He did not tell us to argue about the timing. Does it really matter when?? What I am more concerned about is if our lamps are full and our wicks are trimmed.

I should also add that we are commanded to search the scriptures daily for answers, but please, continue in love for one another.

I was seriously trying to understand, not argue, for I do not have a stance at all. The trouble started when yzf-r1 thought I was coming against what yzf-r1 posted.