Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ChristB4us]

10 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

So then, you believe in "soul sleep"?  Then please explain what Paul mean here:

2 Cor 5:

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. physically ALIVE.

7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 

8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.  physically DEAD.

It seems clear that Paul was contrasting physical life and physical death.  What am I missing?  Thank.

I agree that Paul's description of our future resurrection body does not mean an immaterial body.  In fact, Scripture says we will have a body just like His.  And we all know His resurrection body was REAL, and PHYSICAL.  He was able to eat food, but also pass through walls/doors.  He even had the marks of His crucifixion on His glorified resurrection body.

@Retrobyter

Is this the origin for such thinking?

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

I believe if that be the case, it is just referring that once you die, you will not be able to do those things in the land of the living;  not that you are unaware as if in soul sleep.

Jesus gave that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus and I take that testimony of the afterlife as true and so there is an awareness after death.

Course you have that reference in Revelation of those spirits under the altar awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation.  

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Edited April 22, 2023 by ChristB4us

[Charles R. Sabo]

A little help....please excuse my analysis, it is just how my spirit works within me; GOD's Spirit has made me this way, Amen!

 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? Having to flee from Thessalonica so quickly, Paul took with him the realization that there were still people believing the false prophets, who were declaring that the “day of the Lord” was “at hand.” He had been setting people straight, while he was there, by informing them of the two prerequisites that had to occur first, before the seven-year “day of the Lord” could begin. Here in verse 5, Paul reminded them that he was there recently and had been correcting them in their false beliefs, concerning the timing of the two events described in verse 1.  

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. While Paul reminded the Thessalonians of what he was teaching them before he fled, he acknowledged that they “now” know what “withholds” the world from the revealing of that person (he) in his time on Earth. The pronoun “he” reflects back to the noun spoken of in verse 3 (man of sin), reflected additionally in verse 4 with the pronoun “who.” The translators used the verb “withholds” for the Greek verb katechō, which is defined as “to restrain, hinder.” The inflected form of the Greek word is used in the accusative singular neuter form (κατέχον), so a gender was not yet used in the translation. From this declaration, Paul reminded the Thessalonians that there was something, which they had already been told about, that would restrain the “man of sin” (Antichrist) from being revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. The conjunction “for” is interchangeable for the conjunction “because.” This verse is one of the most debated verses of the Bible. It provides the reason for the previous statement by Paul. The focus, that Paul is reminding the Thessalonians of, is “what withholds” (restrains) the revealing of the man of sin (Antichrist).

Satan and his dominion know the Bible and anticipate the removal of this restrainer, ever since it had been written of. The evil realm preserves their candidates through the centuries, ready to jump in and be this man of sin. The Apostle John revealed this same doctrine, within his first epistle, that Paul had here in verse 7 concerning the “mystery of iniquity.”

 

Little children, it is the last days: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last days. (1 Jn. 2:18)

 

The second sentence of verse 7 is the controversial verse, which is debated between Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, and Post-Tribulation Rapture believers. “only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.” In breaking down the Greek, the translators used the verb “lets” for the Greek verb katechō (κατέχων) in the nominative singular masculine, which then has indicated that this is a male gendered person, who is performing this action. The pronoun “he” is then to be used as the one who is performing the action of restraining. The definition of the verb katechō is “restrains,” due to the tense being used within the sentence. The tense of this verse is determined by the word “now” being translated from the Greek adverb nyn meaning present, or now. Paul first states that “only” he is now letting (restraining), so it should be understood that there is no other thing, or person performing this action.

The identity is verified as a male gender restraining the revealing of the man of sin (Antichrist) in the current age. Since we know this to have been occurring over the last two millenniums, the single person should be realized to be God. Can this be understood to be God the Father, or even God the Son? Yes, it is them, but the true Person that should be realized is God the Holy Spirit. “But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Rom. 8:9)

Everywhere in the world are Holy Spirit-filled Christians, who prevent the world from becoming totally overwhelmed in darkness and decay. Jesus had told his disciples that we are the salt and the light of the world (Matt. 5:13-16). Salt, being the preservative used to prevent spoilage, while our light is keeping the darkness at bay. Those, who do not have the Holy Spirit, do not understand this. Paul implied here in verse 7 that the Holy Spirit (He) “who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.” Post-Tribulation and Mid-Tribulation Rapture believers twist this when they argue that it cannot be the Holy Spirit-filled church; they have a hard time wrapping their minds around the removal of the Holy Spirit from the Earth. If a person were to understand that the iniquity becomes so dominant in the world during the seven-year “day of the Lord,” they should also realize that God the Holy Spirit still is everywhere because He is omnipresent. He will not be indwelt within a multitude of believers, who until the rapture, has been influencing and restraining the world from utter darkness and the extreme decay of morality. “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever.” (Jn. 14:16) The objections to this is because they do not understand how involved the Holy Spirit will be, when the church has been removed from the planet.

2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The conjunction “and” connects this clause with the previous verse. Once the second prerequisite has come to pass, then shall that Wicked one be revealed. In other words, once the Holy Spirit-filled church has been removed from the entire Earth, then the man of sin (Wicked) shall be revealed. Paul’s intent was to remove any doubt from the Thessalonians that the seven-year day of the Lord could not be at hand, because the Christian church is still on the planet. In the modern world, non-Christians will know when the rapture of the church will be, because hundreds of millions of Christians will disappear at the blink of an eye. The world media will fill the internet and news broadcasts with the mysterious disappearance and catastrophic events that will transpire, as a result of them suddenly vanishing. Planes, trains, and automobiles will crash violently when their operators will have left them out of control. Many catastrophic deaths will transpire throughout the Earth, sending the survivors into utter panic. Loved ones will have vanished, or died, or be seriously injured. It will be an obvious occurrence, while the non-believers search for answers to why this will have happened.

The world will be in turmoil, while wars will have been transpiring to bring the rapture of the church, which will bring a need for peace.

 

[ChristB4us]

10 minutes ago, Charles R. Sabo said:

A little help....please excuse my analysis, it is just how my spirit works within me; GOD's Spirit has made me this way, Amen!

 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? Having to flee from Thessalonica so quickly, Paul took with him the realization that there were still people believing the false prophets, who were declaring that the “day of the Lord” was “at hand.” He had been setting people straight, while he was there, by informing them of the two prerequisites that had to occur first, before the seven-year “day of the Lord” could begin. Here in verse 5, Paul reminded them that he was there recently and had been correcting them in their false beliefs, concerning the timing of the two events described in verse 1.  

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. While Paul reminded the Thessalonians of what he was teaching them before he fled, he acknowledged that they “now” know what “withholds” the world from the revealing of that person (he) in his time on Earth. The pronoun “he” reflects back to the noun spoken of in verse 3 (man of sin), reflected additionally in verse 4 with the pronoun “who.” The translators used the verb “withholds” for the Greek verb katechō, which is defined as “to restrain, hinder.” The inflected form of the Greek word is used in the accusative singular neuter form (κατέχον), so a gender was not yet used in the translation. From this declaration, Paul reminded the Thessalonians that there was something, which they had already been told about, that would restrain the “man of sin” (Antichrist) from being revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. The conjunction “for” is interchangeable for the conjunction “because.” This verse is one of the most debated verses of the Bible. It provides the reason for the previous statement by Paul. The focus, that Paul is reminding the Thessalonians of, is “what withholds” (restrains) the revealing of the man of sin (Antichrist).

Satan and his dominion know the Bible and anticipate the removal of this restrainer, ever since it had been written of. The evil realm preserves their candidates through the centuries, ready to jump in and be this man of sin. The Apostle John revealed this same doctrine, within his first epistle, that Paul had here in verse 7 concerning the “mystery of iniquity.”

 

Little children, it is the last days: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last days. (1 Jn. 2:18)

 

The second sentence of verse 7 is the controversial verse, which is debated between Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, and Post-Tribulation Rapture believers. “only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.” In breaking down the Greek, the translators used the verb “lets” for the Greek verb katechō (κατέχων) in the nominative singular masculine, which then has indicated that this is a male gendered person, who is performing this action. The pronoun “he” is then to be used as the one who is performing the action of restraining. The definition of the verb katechō is “restrains,” due to the tense being used within the sentence. The tense of this verse is determined by the word “now” being translated from the Greek adverb nyn meaning present, or now. Paul first states that “only” he is now letting (restraining), so it should be understood that there is no other thing, or person performing this action.

The identity is verified as a male gender restraining the revealing of the man of sin (Antichrist) in the current age. Since we know this to have been occurring over the last two millenniums, the single person should be realized to be God. Can this be understood to be God the Father, or even God the Son? Yes, it is them, but the true Person that should be realized is God the Holy Spirit. “But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Rom. 8:9)

Everywhere in the world are Holy Spirit-filled Christians, who prevent the world from becoming totally overwhelmed in darkness and decay. Jesus had told his disciples that we are the salt and the light of the world (Matt. 5:13-16). Salt, being the preservative used to prevent spoilage, while our light is keeping the darkness at bay. Those, who do not have the Holy Spirit, do not understand this. Paul implied here in verse 7 that the Holy Spirit (He) “who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.” Post-Tribulation and Mid-Tribulation Rapture believers twist this when they argue that it cannot be the Holy Spirit-filled church; they have a hard time wrapping their minds around the removal of the Holy Spirit from the Earth. If a person were to understand that the iniquity becomes so dominant in the world during the seven-year “day of the Lord,” they should also realize that God the Holy Spirit still is everywhere because He is omnipresent. He will not be indwelt within a multitude of believers, who until the rapture, has been influencing and restraining the world from utter darkness and the extreme decay of morality. “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever.” (Jn. 14:16) The objections to this is because they do not understand how involved the Holy Spirit will be, when the church has been removed from the planet.

2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The conjunction “and” connects this clause with the previous verse. Once the second prerequisite has come to pass, then shall that Wicked one be revealed. In other words, once the Holy Spirit-filled church has been removed from the entire Earth, then the man of sin (Wicked) shall be revealed. Paul’s intent was to remove any doubt from the Thessalonians that the seven-year day of the Lord could not be at hand, because the Christian church is still on the planet. In the modern world, non-Christians will know when the rapture of the church will be, because hundreds of millions of Christians will disappear at the blink of an eye. The world media will fill the internet and news broadcasts with the mysterious disappearance and catastrophic events that will transpire, as a result of them suddenly vanishing. Planes, trains, and automobiles will crash violently when their operators will have left them out of control. Many catastrophic deaths will transpire throughout the Earth, sending the survivors into utter panic. Loved ones will have vanished, or died, or be seriously injured. It will be an obvious occurrence, while the non-believers search for answers to why this will have happened.

The world will be in turmoil, while wars will have been transpiring to bring the rapture of the church, which will bring a need for peace.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,...

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How do you apply verses 13-15 as Paul is citing that tradition to expose that lie from which many saved believers will be falling away from the faith by?

Is it to expose the lie that one can receive the Holy Spirit after a sign or again apart from salvation?  Why cite this tradition unless to expose that lie and the iniquity for why many in these latter days now are falling away from the faith?

[Charles R. Sabo]

22 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Is it to expose the lie that one can receive the Holy Spirit after a sign or again apart from salvation?  Why cite this tradition unless to expose that lie and the iniquity for why many in these latter days now are falling away from the faith?

Great to hear from you, ChristB4us! Here is my response to your question:

Paul was not addressing individual Christians, but the organizations being called the church of Jesus Christ. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Verses 1 and 2 should be read together as a complete sentence. Notice once again, Paul included Silas and Timothy within the following declarations with the pronoun “we.” He addressed the believers of Thessalonica as brethren. Though Post-Tribulation Rapture believers want to grasp onto verse 1, in order to connect the Second Coming of Jesus Christ with the rapture of the church together as one event, we must remember that Paul is attempting to address the timing between the two events. The Greek word “kai” is translated as “and,” which is to be interpreted as “also,” or “in addition to;” thus, we have an introduction to his teaching, while drawing a reader’s interest. Obviously, “our gathering together unto Him” refers to the catching away (harpazo) of the church to the Lord in the air.   2That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Verse 2 is a series of phrases to make up a clause that is linked to verse 1. It is best to understand that Paul had implied the following: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,… The topic, which Paul, Timothy, and Silas was beseeching, was for the Thessalonians to not be troubled concerning (by) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.

The translators used the noun “mind” for the Greek noun “nous,” which can be understood to mean: “the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially.” Paul was addressing their sober and impartial judgment concerning the doctrine that he was teaching concerning the expression “the day of the Lord (Christ) is at hand.” He was insisting that they think logically about the timing of the “day of the Lord,” rather than listening to false doctrines from two different possible sources, while the third was concerning misunderstanding even letters from them (us). The logic was to be understood, so to know that is was not possible for the “day of the Lord” to be “at hand,” because one event having not happened yet proved it was not “at hand.”

 We should understand that the term “spirit” pertains to false prophecies; this manner of speaking was and is common among pious individuals, who apply the term “spirit” in their prophesying, with the intent of putting honor in their declarations. The term “word” pertains to oral speech, which proclaims many false doctrines and heresies. Paul, then included even his own writings, or any other writings, that could cause them to be troubled in thinking the “day of Christ is at hand.” With this position, Paul then provided them with the absolute logic, which would eliminate any ideas that anyone was living in the seven years known as the “day of the Lord.”

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Paul commanded the brethren of Thessalonica to not be deceived by anyone, because the day of the Lord cannot come before this certain condition does first. The church has misunderstood this verse in its proper context. If Paul was addressing the timing of the “day of the Lord” concerning the rapture of the church, then why would he confuse things by adding an additional prerequisite? Clearly, verses 6-7 concern the rapture, then the “Wicked” be revealed in verse 8. If the man of sin in verse 3 is Antichrist, then so is the “Wicked” in verse 8. Paul added here that he will also be the son of perdition (apōleia), or destruction. By believing in this man of sin, a person will be led to their own destruction.

Since the church has allowed the English translators to insert the term “falling away” into verse 3 for the Greek word apostasia, it can be ascertained that the sovereignty of God is at work. Verse 3 implies to a second prerequisite that must first occur, before the “day of the Lord.” Many Lexicons will exclude the additional English definition for the Greek word apostasia, which can also mean “departure.” Though the word “departure” can point to the rapture of the church, it doesn’t really mean that it is what Paul intended. In 2 Timothy 4:6, Paul used the Greek word “analysis,” which was translated as “departure” by the translators. “Because I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.” (2 Timothy 4:6) Paul was clearly writing Timothy concerning his future death and departure to be with the Lord. With this, I conclude that Paul would have used the Greek word “analysis” here in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, if he truly meant the departure of the church.  

 

 ³ Because the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

⁴ And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Tim. 4:3-4)

 

As we Christians have endured in the last days on Earth, we can witness apostasies and false doctrines being administered in the churches that were once biblically sound. Paul had warned Timothy of these times within both of his letters to him. So, obviously, Paul had meant for this additional prerequisite to be recognized by the church, before the day of the Lord was actually at hand. In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul expressed that in the latter times (last days) some will “depart” from the faith.

1Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

² Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

³ Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:1-3)

Apostasies have occurred throughout the history of the church, therefore, this first prerequisite is not very comforting to those who are being victimized by false prophesies, false declarations, as well as misinterpretations of Paul’s doctrines. The second prerequisite is much more precise and applicable to one specific event. Please refer to my explanation in verse 6, concerning the revealing of the Antichrist (man of sin). 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Charles R. Sabo

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, Charles R. Sabo said:

Is it to expose the lie that one can receive the Holy Spirit after a sign or again apart from salvation?  Why cite this tradition unless to expose that lie and the iniquity for why many in these latter days now are falling away from the faith?

Great to hear from you, ChristB4us! Here is my response to your question:

Paul was not addressing individual Christians, but the organizations being called the church of Jesus Christ. 

Well, in the first epistle to the Thessalonians, this charge was put forth.

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. KJV

Colossians 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. KJV

Since that is a regular practice with any of these epistles, I see this as addressing also individual believers, aka the brethren.

Quote

Verse 2 is a series of phrases to make up a clause that is linked to verse 1. It is best to understand that Paul had implied the following: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,… The topic, which Paul, Timothy, and Silas was beseeching, was for the Thessalonians to not be troubled concerning (by) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.

That can be read as talking about 2 separate events.  I understand that it can be read as both happening at the same event, but I do not believe that is the case.

Zechariah 14:1-5 has the Lord coming back with the saints to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem but in Revelation 20:1-6, Satan is in the pit for a thousand years before that resurrection takes place of those saints as described as that went through the great tribulation.  That means the world's armies marching against Jerusalem has already been defeated.  So that resurrection after the great tribulation isn't where those saints are meeting Him in the air, because He is on earth after having defeated Satan and the world's armies.

That is why I see Paul as meaning 2 events even though he has not taken pains to clarify that as two separate events but those reading from him, understood what he had meant as it aligns with the rest of scripture that the churches would have  because there is a coming of Jesus Christ as the Bridegroom for which He will raptured the church abiding in Him to the sit down at the Mariage Supper table above and then His return as the coming King of kings for why it is not the same event.

Now Paul was addressing that iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith in these latter days because it was happening in his day as verse 7 testify of.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This lie is seeking to receive the holy Spirit by that sign of tongues and as if that is not enough, they seek the receiving of the Holy Spirit after other signs also like in slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, being drunk in the "spirit", Toronto's Blessings, Pensacola Outpouring, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, and even Asbury Revival is you look hard enough of all of the reports coming out of there, where one supposedly casted out a devil in a woman who fell backwards.  This is the lie that God will permit saved believers to fall away from the faith for in having those strong delusion for why many are at risk of being left behind Matthew 25:1-13 & Matthew 7:21-27 & Luke 13:24-30

Anyway, Paul goes on to the next chapter in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 talking about those that are falling away from the faith in his days in how we are commanded by the Lord with the Lord's touching us ( helping us ) to withdraw from them that refuse to repent and yet we are not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still.  2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

Yeah, I know.  2 Thessalonians 2:12 would suggest that they were never believers for why they were damned, but this is in regards to that very falling away from the faith mentioned in the beginning of that chapter two. So how can scripture aligns when Jesus said He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him?

Paul cites 2 Timothy 2:19-21 of how believers that have gone astray to repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes in order to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House, vessels of gold & silver, whereas those that do not depart from iniquity will be left behind to die ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 6:9-11 to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth.  2 Timothy 2:19-21 & Revelation 7:9-17

The rapture event is when Jesus Christ judges His House first 1 Peter 4:17 & in that day He will judge what has been built on that foundation 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 and so this is why He is warning saved believes today to be ready or else. Luke 12:40-49

If you consider how bad it would be for believers at the end of the great tribulation, then how can any be ensnared by the cares of this life, let alone be drinking freely in getting drunk when the beats is waging war on the saints with the sword and hunger because they cannot buy or sell unless they have the mark?

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus is warning believers to be ready now and stop procrastinating from departing from sin and to pray for help not to be ensnared by the cares of this life that by obligations or commitments ( being overcharged ) you feel like you can't leave.

And like it or not, Luke 14:15-24 has saved believers refusing to come to the King's Supper in Heaven because they value their lives more on earth.  That can't happen to any saved believer at the end of the great tribulation.  That is why Jesus referred to Lot's wife in verse 32, of Luke 17:26-37 KJV for how life will seem hunky dory for the believers until they get taken of those abiding in Him & willing to go. 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Rick-Parker said:

You said that out of all the posts in this thread that no Biblical proof had been posted. So, I posted a bunch. I don't expect that it would change anyone's view. I just did it to prove you wrong about Biblical proof. 

Shabbat shalom, Rick-Parker.

The Biblical proof is that there is no Heaven as is commonly accepted. The common description of "Heaven" is actually the description of the New Jerusalem that descends to the New Earth found in Revelation 21 and 22.

In the New Testament, the Greek word translated as "heaven" is usually the word "ouranos" (3772, 278x) and this Greek word means the "sky." There's no better Scripture to prove that than Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "from the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: tou ouranou = "of-the sky"); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

The SAME WORD is used FOUR times in this passage of Scripture! Once, it was used for what the P'rushiym ("Pharisees") and Ts'duqqiym ("Sadducees") were demanding, and three times, it was used for the words of Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus"). In the three Yeeshuwa` used, they all meant "sky." Only in the first case could it mean anything else; however, for whatever the Pharisees and Sadducees were asking, they got what they asked for even if it wasn't what they wanted. The translators, for their own reasons, translated the first occurrence as "heaven" but the other three as "sky."

There are other words that were translated as "heaven" or something involving "heaven." The other Greek words are ...
"ouranios," (3770, 9x) the adjective form of "ouranos" meaning "of or belonging to the sky";
"ouranothen," (3771, 2x) an adverb formed from its ending meaning "from the sky";  
"mesouraneema," (3321, 3x) a combination of "meso-" meaning "middle" and "ouraneema" meaning "in the middle of the sky";
and "epouranios," (2o32, 19x) an adjective that combines "epi-" meaning "above" with "ouranios," meaning "of or belonging to above-the-sky."

So, when one reads something that SOUNDS like it's about "Heaven," it is actually talking about the "sky," which is mostly earth's atmosphere. Only during the night, does the "sky" refer to the stars and planets beyond the atmosphere.

God is omnipresent and eternal; He is NOT restricted to some "Heaven." People in the past have not "gone to Heaven when they died."

As I was telling DeighAnn above, 

John 3:9-13 (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, 

"How can these things be?" 

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, 

"Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

And so one doesn't think, "Well, this was before He 'led captivity captive,'" Peter also said AFTER the Resurrection and the Ascension of our Lord, 

Acts 2:22- (KJV)

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 "For David speaketh concerning him, 

"'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.'

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of THE PATRIARCH DAVID, THAT HE IS BOTH DEAD AND BURIED, AND HIS SEPULCHRE IS WITH US UNTO THIS DAY. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 "For DAVID IS NOT ASCENDED INTO THE HEAVENS: but he saith himself, 

"'The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."'

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Surely David would have been included in the number that was the "captivity that was led captive" had that been what Paul meant in Ephesians 4:8!

Now, just to offset this negative point, I am THOROUGHLY CONVINCED that we will spend eternity upon the New Earth, living in the New Jerusalem, and breathing the air of the New Sky. THAT is the TRUE "Heaven!" However, this doesn't happen until AFTER the Millennium.

And, the Millennium is actually about the locking up of haSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") in the bottomless pit. The Messiah begins His reign shortly after His arrival in the Second Coming, but He won't just reign for a thousand years. We're told in Scripture that He will reign FOREVER!

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel [Gabriel] said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END."

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Then who will judge the angels, if we become angels, "again".  1 Cor 6:3 - Do you not know that we will judge angels?  How much more than the things of this Life. 

In Christ

Montana Marv

We are a little lower than the angels right now, right?  pilgrims and sojourners, partakers of the flesh and blood like Christ was, right?


4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The SONS OF GOD watching the earth being created.  Do you think if GOD killed them all off?  If He did, would He bring them up? Not saying He hasn't or else why would He be swearing by Himself?  Anyways,  since there was NO EARTH but they were watching it being created, WHAT kind of 'bodies' do you think they were singing and shouting for joy in?  

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV

I have heard those who say 'this is just the breath of life' but they have no more evidence written than I have so it's just a matter of what one believes.  
 

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

6Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

7But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

8Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

9Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.

I have heard the replies of GOD knows everything before it happened, but if that were the case WHY MENTION IT?  
 

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How would He have known who to 'call' and who NOT to?  

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

That was a KINGDOM in heaven.  

And sure enough, there 'mysteriously', in the garden with Adam and Eve, the serpent...aka the devil, the dragon...who will be influence behind the beast with 10 kings...the false prophet, the image...seeming OUT OF NOWHERE and for no reason...

Makes one understand the verses like 'your are of your father the devil' and/or 'will turn the hearts of the children to the fathers' 'you generation of serpents' 'synagogue of Satan', vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, things like that.  

There was a whole world in which the one God made the full pattern betrayed Him.  And THAT TIME it made God so mad he did DESTROY the earth He had created to be inhabited.  BUT this time, He is not going to destroy the earth but those souls who have destroyed the earth and are not of God because they are of their father, and this is their last chance.  

And since I don't like to USE MY OWN WORDS, 

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8 KJV
 

Isa 45
15Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.


 

19My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

29The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

30And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

 

Gen
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You know what would be a really nice?  Instead of telling me you don't believe any of these go together, SHOW HOW THEY REALLY DO fit, as far as you see it, because just telling me I am wrong doesn't really help.  


Anyways, that is the 'again' portion of the discussion, but there is so much more that was left out.  

I just LOVE THE OLD TESTAMENT...the history we are given, truly a miracle and/or many miracles.  

 

[DeighAnn]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It was a DREAM! Since when does the INVISIBLE YHWH God, who is a SPIRIT, appear as an individual at the top of a ladder or staircase?!

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7 KJV

Genesis 20:3
But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

Genesis 20:6
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.


"And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I." Genesis 31:11 KJV


"And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad." Genesis 31:24 KJV


"And it was so, when Gideon heard the telling of the dream, and the interpretation thereof, that he worshipped, and returned into the host of Israel, and said, Arise; for the LORD hath delivered into your hand the host of Midian." Judges 7:15 KJV


"The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD." Jeremiah 23:28 KJV



"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" Acts 2:17 KJV



 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 

One may ASSUME that this means "God brings those who are in Heaven with Jesus when He comes," but the Scriptures do NOT say that!

You quoted the scripture that said it, and then said it did not say it.   

If WE CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN AS even being WHAT IS WRITTEN, then what is the point?   

APPARENTLY, no one has received any truth, if they don't read Hebrew and Greek. 

And there we have it.  WE disagree as to what is even written, let alone the meaning.  I will just bow out here.  Peace out










 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is convoluted thinking. Who dies and goes to the grave? EVERYONE DOES! Even Yeeshuwa` died and was buried! There's no distinction here! This is just twisted! "Why are they dead? Because they died while being dead." HUH?! That's CONFUSED TALK!

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

No need to ASK how you would answer that question is there?  Rhetorical  

Of course, attacking my person with "convoluted thinking and CONFUSED TALK" is somehow, OK for you to put forth though?  There's a word for that...do you know what it is?  Again, Rhetorical. 

It's best I stop.