Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Is that truth or a lie?

Shalom, DeighAnn.

It is absolute truth. BUT, one must be CONSISTENT with Paul's use of these words for it to remain true! One cannot redefine them on a whim and say that this statement is still true!

Paul (Sha'uwl Paulos) probably spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, and knew Greek and possibly Latin, as well. However, we're only given these words in Greek. And, it wasn't classical Greek, but "koinee" Greek which came later. In the Greek versions that have survived, the words here are ...

44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. Εἰ ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἔστιν καὶ πνευματικόν.

This is transliterated as ...

44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon. Ei estin sooma psuchikon, estin kai pneumatikon.

And, it is translated word-for-word as ...

44 It-is-sown a-body air-breathing, it-is-raised a-body air-blasting. If there-is a-body air-breathing, there-is also an-air-blasting.

These words do NOT mean "physical" and "non-physical" nor do they mean "material" and "immaterial!" It was misleading to translate "psuchikon" as "natural." It implies that the contrast would be "supernatural" at best, "unnatural" at worst! It was also misleading in the long run to translate "pneumatikon" as "spiritual," because we no longer associate the word "spirit" with "wind" as a "blast of air!"

I'm doing my best to take these words back to the way that Paul used them instead of the messed up way they've become interpreted down through the centuries.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

It hasn't. However, the Resurrections are divided BETWEEN the Resurrection of the Just (the Justified by God) and the Resurrection of the Unjust. Prophets in the Tanakh (the OT) didn't always know the distinction.

The Resurrection of the Just is at the Return of the Messiah, and that happens BEFORE the Millennium of Satan's lockdown.

The Resurrection of the Unjust happens just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ) AFTER the Millennium and Satan is released.

The "Last Day" is a VERY LONG DAY! When the Messiah of God, the Son of God, the "Sun of Righteousness arises with healing in His wings," He doesn't "set" for a THOUSAND YEARS! He will ALWAYS be awake and alert, and He will ALWAYS "shine brighter than the noonday sun!"

And, we read ...

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits; [This happened around 30 A.D.]
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. [This is the Resurrection of the Just.] 24
(2) THEN cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [This is the Resurrection of the Unjust just prior to the GWTJ.]

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [This is the Millennium between the two Resurrections.]

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [AT the GWTJ.] 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (obvious) that "he" is excepted, which did put all things under him.)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God (His Father) may be all in all.

That is the order of events, the "outline" of what is to come that Paul paints for us.
1 Corinthians 15 IS called "the Resurrection Chapter" for good reason! Verses 24 to 27 TAKE TIME to accomplish!

@DeighAnn

Yet there is a warning to mislead a child by any false teachings in a church for why saved believers may find themselves left behind.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Of course, little ones can also apply to babes in Christ, but it does apply to children as well.

Side note:  Matthew 18:9-10 is an example of how English words from the Greek does not always reflect the actual meaning of the Greek as hell is translated from Gehenna which is a refuse dump outside of Jerusalem and also known as the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

The warning to saved believers from Jesus is about being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event as those abiding in Him will be received to that City of God in Heaven for when at the end of the great tribulation, that City of God will come down with her inhabitants.

Those saints left behind will be resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.  2 Timothy 2:19-21 

They can repent, ask for forgiveness and help not to do that again, and if there be opportunities to correct those they have led astray, thank God for it and ask for His help to share the truth so that God may peradventure recover them from error, but otherwise, let it rest in Jesus Christ.

But one should consider the consequence for not sharing the Good News to those that ask.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

[Montana Marv]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

You know what would be a really nice?  Instead of telling me you don't believe any of these go together, SHOW HOW THEY REALLY DO fit, as far as you see it, because just telling me I am wrong doesn't really help. 

Col 1:16 - For by Him (Jesus Christ) all things were created; things in heaven; and on earth; visible and invisible; whether thrones or powers; or rulers or authorities;; All things were created by Him and for Him.

We as Man are of the visible, cannot become invisible.  Angels are of the invisible to Man, yet can make themselves visible to Man.  We cannot see Spiritual warfare. Yet the angels see in their own realm. We as Man are made Male and Female.  Angels have no such distinction.  No need to go any further.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I believe it is the sieve from which God is removing all sin and knowledge of sin from the eternal state... for we are told by God that we cannot know it now - for we are in the place of sin...

1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV)

[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

As I love God's Word and the exactness it affords us 'we simply cannot understand what is not known' ... but we hope, formed from faith, from God's Word and for this time it is enough!

What does your grammar and definitions and break down say it says?


44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

ALL doctrines ASIDE, Spirit of Truth, standing before God, is it written

are we raised a spiritual body, or 'a spirit'?


 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

It hasn't. However, the Resurrections are divided BETWEEN the Resurrection of the Just (the Justified by God) and the Resurrection of the Unjust. Prophets in the Tanakh (the OT) didn't always know the distinction.

The Resurrection of the Just is at the Return of the Messiah, and that happens BEFORE the Millennium of Satan's lockdown.

The Resurrection of the Unjust happens just prior to the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ) AFTER the Millennium and Satan is released.

The "Last Day" is a VERY LONG DAY! When the Messiah of God, the Son of God, the "Sun of Righteousness arises with healing in His wings," He doesn't "set" for a THOUSAND YEARS! He will ALWAYS be awake and alert, and He will ALWAYS "shine brighter than the noonday sun!"

And, we read ...

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits; [This happened around 30 A.D.]
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. [This is the Resurrection of the Just.] 24
(2) THEN cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [This is the Resurrection of the Unjust just prior to the GWTJ.]

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" 1 Corinthians 5:7 KJV

Isn't that passover from death to life?  Why would God have us DIE and be BORN  from above, to have US DIE same as those who weren't born from above?  They were already going to different sides of the gulf, so having our SINS FORGIVEN didn't keep us from death at all, as far as I hear what you are saying.  



So, we are born, die and born from above, made a new creature, the new creature then DIES, ceases to have any body at all, then returns for a body, to be 'born yet again' in a 'spiritual/heavenly' body raised up from the corruption but in glory???

a little more detailed...
We are born, the saved die and are born from above (but not really),
the new creature then dies (really), 
BOTH bodies go into the corruption, and while the natural body goes back to dust, the spiritual body 'lives on' but in the corruption awaiting the return of a spirit to 'make it alive',
while the 'spirit' ONLY goes to heaven (even though everyone in heaven has a body as they 'worship, cry out, know what is going on, have feet, walk, talk, are as the angels in resurrection, ect, ) where nothing is written of them in that manner,
and it is the 'spirit' part of 'us?' that goes before the bema seat to RECEIVE the things done in this body,
then the spirit returns with Christ to the earth for the spiritual body from the corruption of the earth (even though corruption doesn't inherit incorruption)
to be raised up in glory from the corruption of the earth 

ALL THAT even knowing what is written about those alive and remaining being 'changed' from the natural body to the spiritual body in the twinkling of an eye? 


 

"For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Romans 11:16 KJV

Why would Christ be the FIRST FRUIT 'singular' OF THEM THAT SLEPT, if in FACT He is the firstfruit OF ALL THAT WILL EVER SLEEP? 

Why even MENTION those sleeping?  was it because 

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Were those raised up out of their graves ASLEEP? 

Did they come out of the graves, 'out from the dead', in bodies? 

And if they did as it is written, then wouldn't that make Him the firstfruit of them that slept after all?  

IF it wasn't for the BELIEF presently held about THE RESURRECTION of BOTH the just and unjust, not being one resurrection of TWO groups BUT RATHER being 2 RESURRECTIONS of separate groups, and WHY would the Jews, who didn't know of the Lords Day believe that?  Or did they know there would be a Lords Day and where is that written?  
How does the grammar and definitions play out in those verses?  IF the resurrection about to be WAS OF BOTH the just and unjust wouldn't it be written like:

a hope having in God which also they themselves await 

a resurrection there is about to be of just both and unjust?  SEEMS to be so many ways to to say there are going to be two resurrections, they will take place at different times and they are for different groups.  WHY put it forth in a way that is clearly and easily understood one way when it means something entirely different? 
 

Does our spiritual body go INTO THE CORRUPTION of the earth or not?  If not, WHERE does a 'spiritual body' come from? 

When we see Christ will we be LIKE HIM or not?  Not as in walking through walls on earth, but as being in a body in heaven

Does God give every seed a body or not?

What exactly do you see as being "BORN" FROM ABOVE, when we get saved?  What do the words of God, and the body and blood of Christ FEED?  

We know that the 'body' when sown produces a seed.  Do you see any 'seed' as being born or being planted, when we are born again?  

Why is it OK for 'a spirit without a body' to rise up, but not our whole 'being' in a heavenly body/spiritual body?  


Where is anything written about SPIRITS REJOINING BODIES from the corruption of the earth at Christs return? 


11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When are THOSE DEAD raised up? Since they are not JUDGED by faith, but WORKS, they obviously were never 'saved' previous to that, so they had to have been raised up from the 'dead', as the dead, correct?  If they hadn't been raised up at the beginning of the Lords Day, in the resurrection of the just and the unjust, then what WORKS are they being judged according to, and how are they supposed to get their names in the book of life if not allowed anytime to work?   (can't come to faith when GOD is sitting right there before the eyes)



After THOSE DEAD are judged we read of these dead 'being raised up'

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How are those two groups of people different from one another?


AND THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF ALL, who would we be PRIESTS to, and with Christ reign over if only the saved are alive for the Lords Day?  Who are all the nations that come to worship?




OLD TEST most everyone died and went to the grave.  (but NOT ALL)

God was not happy with SATAN holding hostage His people, bound TO death by SIN,

So He sent His Son, and with the Kingdom rejected and the King killed, with the bringing forth of the NEW COVENANT, He tasted death FOR EVERYONE, His blood washed them CLEAN while His sacrifice also paid the ransom, bringing about the redemption of those who had died (SLEPT) so 'redeemed' and gone back to God (at least those having heard the good news) 

while those who still had to die the common death of the EARTH BODY (as in Adam all die) IN FRONT OF THEM, now having NO IMPUTED SIN at death, so having no penalty to pay, and are raised up in their spiritual bodies, following Him to be where He is, raised up in glory, in power, incorruptible, their spiritual body not seeing corruption, to dwell in heaven with Him and to receive in that body the things done in this body, and to return with Him in the army that comes back with Him for the Lords Day,

when the DEAD, those who do die, are raised.


WHILE YOUR VERSION is missing any verse that speaks to 

being raised up WITHOUT A BODY, 'causing that 'being' to cease being a 'being' as created by God which IS both BODY and BREATH

being in heaven without a body

walking talking and crying in heaven without a body making that possible

returning WITHOUT A BODY

a spiritual body being raised up from the corruption

bodies raised up from the corruption being raised 'in glory'

and most important, a rejoining of all those spirits and bodies at that time. 

Just another 'branch' of the PTRD.  A bunch of stuff assumed over what is actually written, that is confusing with what is.  

If spirits 'cry out' it is because they either have a body or are 'possessing' one.   


You can easily see just HOW DIFFERENT we understand SO MUCH OF what is written.  



The THOUGHT of Jesus doing all that work and it not making any difference except to open salvation to whomsoever would is so foreign to me...I have no words. 


 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Col 1:16 - For by Him (Jesus Christ) all things were created; things in heaven; and on earth; visible and invisible; whether thrones or powers; or rulers or authorities;; All things were created by Him and for Him.

We as Man are of the visible, cannot become invisible.  Angels are of the invisible to Man, yet can make themselves visible to Man.  We cannot see Spiritual warfare. Yet the angels see in their own realm. We as Man are made Male and Female.  Angels have no such distinction.  No need to go any further.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I meant, take the verses and put them in order, if you are able.  

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I'm not attacking you, only the "convoluted thinking and confused talk."

If I were saying that about you, as that is what you put forth is to me, you would not think that an attack?  Honestly?


 

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

They confuse you and distort the world around you. I want you to come out into the freedom and clarity of the Light!

YOU THINK I am confused, because I do not understand how one takes such straight forward verses and turns them into saying something I WOULD HAVE NEVER EVEN GUESSED them to say WITHOUT hearing your take.  THAT is what I find confusing.  

When it is written sown a natural body raised a spiritul body, CRAZY ME believes, sown a natural body raised a spiritual body, AND EVERYTHING must fall into line with THAT TRUTH written.  

What is confusing to me is sown a natural body, NOT RAISED a natural body but raised and spirit and then the spirit returned to reunite and THEN BE RAISED a spiritual body.  

To you that is ME BEING CONFUSED for believing exactly what I read and NOT being able to take that truth and throw it out the window in favor of what I DON'T READ but what YOU TELL ME is truth.  

I see one as the WORDS OF GOD, the other as the WISDOM OF MAN, and so most likely a false doctrine. 

I see a QUESTIONING as to whether or not WHAT IS WRITTEN is what is meant OR NOT.  Seems to me that NOTHING written can be taken as truth because hardly anything turns out to be RIGHT, as far as the explanations go. 

Another, A resurrection of BOTH the just and unjust.  

I read that as A RESURRECTION of BOTH the just and the unjust, while YOUR UNDERSTANDING is 2 resurrections NOT OF BOTH at all, but of separated groups.  

Here is what scares me about lots of things you EXPLAIN that come about by questioning if God meant what God wrote

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" Revelation 22:18 KJV

I see these explanations as ADDING some things while subtracting others and it is done THOUGH THINGS NOT WRITTEN but 'secretly seen' by some and not others.  

another return of Christ,
ANOTHER raising of the dead,
Another changing of the alive and remaining...
another descending
another ascending
another 'people' of God

a taking away of picking up our cross and following Him
a taking away from sitting at the right hand
a taking away of being sheep led to the slaughter
a taking away of running the race set before us
a taking away of enduring to the end
a taking away of FOLLOWING Him, even unto death


Talk about WORRIED FOR MY BRETHREN!!!  This is the worst thing I do in this world.  I hate this.  It robs me of my peace.  BUT THE INSTRUCTIONS ARE to stand upon the wall and proclaim GODS TRUTH.  

I think this doctrine proliferated because, until there were computers, IT WAS EASY to just put it forth and how it must have brought in new souls with the escape it promised, and with OSAS all it took were saying a few words and forever protected and never have to worry about being deceived....

but once there were computers, and all the contradictions with eveything else that is written had a blaring light shinned upon them, the REFUSAL to let it go has caused/is causing the VERY OPPOSITE to happen. 

When people are told what they read and understand with their own eyes isn't TRUE, but things they CAN'T READ, and things that had never crossed their minds when they did read, WERE, well, just saying I completely understand why it is written

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:" Amos 8:11 KJV


Here is a tiny part of the GOD I know, and HOW He sees and does things.  I believe sometimes the past, is given to us as examples for our future, or examples so we know how to understand future things we read and how we can KNOW who God is and how God works...
 

1Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

2That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!

3Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.

4For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes.

5They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.

6The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

7For the Egyptians shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, Their strength is to sit still.

8Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

9That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

10Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

11Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

12Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

13Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.

14And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

15For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

16But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.

17One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

18And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

19For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.

20And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

21And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

22Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.

23Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.

24The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan.

25And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

26Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

27Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

28And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.

29Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

30And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

31For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

32And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.

33For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

@DeighAnn

Yet there is a warning to mislead a child by any false teachings in a church for why saved believers may find themselves left behind.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Of course, little ones can also apply to babes in Christ, but it does apply to children as well.

Side note:  Matthew 18:9-10 is an example of how English words from the Greek does not always reflect the actual meaning of the Greek as hell is translated from Gehenna which is a refuse dump outside of Jerusalem and also known as the valley of slaughter.

Jeremiah 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

The warning to saved believers from Jesus is about being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event as those abiding in Him will be received to that City of God in Heaven for when at the end of the great tribulation, that City of God will come down with her inhabitants.

Those saints left behind will be resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.  2 Timothy 2:19-21 

They can repent, ask for forgiveness and help not to do that again, and if there be opportunities to correct those they have led astray, thank God for it and ask for His help to share the truth so that God may peradventure recover them from error, but otherwise, let it rest in Jesus Christ.

But one should consider the consequence for not sharing the Good News to those that ask.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

How is God going to explain to those who were tortured to death for His name, why THEY HAD TO DIE in such a manner, when He could have been fair to them too and 'raptured' them away?   How is their BEING SLAUGHTERED without a choice and your escaping SLAUGHTER for no reason at all, RIGHT?  

I know if it was me, IT WOULDN'T seem anywhere NEAR RIGHT especially since the PTRD CLAIMs the exact same gifts as those who do.  Why would GOD PROVE everyone but one single generation, and how do you see as being RIGHT those who have no wisdom, no knowledge, and therefore NO ARMOR to withstand the fiery darts of Satan to go through the trib, while those who are fully suited up in the gospel armor not to.  

Have you ever heard of an army arrayed to defend a city that when the invading army arrived, just left the city all on their own?  WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING?  Wouldn't that just be as evil as can be?  

Am I just so full of wisdom that ONLY I can see HOW UNFAIR PT is TO EVERY OTHER CHILD OF GOD?  Or is it just a complete denial of what is right and what is wrong?  What is just and what is not.   I guess PT cease to be sevants.  I guess the last generation shouldn't benefit from all the 2nd to last had to offer. 

We can pretty much guarantee the DEMISE of everyone who could have, would have, should have been helped, had the church remained.   Just like the OPPOSITE of Gods will that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE.  

[ChristB4us]

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

How is God going to explain to those who were tortured to death for His name, why THEY HAD TO DIE in such a manner, when He could have been fair to them too and 'raptured' them away?   How is their BEING SLAUGHTERED without a choice and your escaping SLAUGHTER for no reason at all, RIGHT?  

Explain this warning to the church at Thyatira & what the consequence is for not repenting.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

It is absolute truth. BUT, one must be CONSISTENT with Paul's use of these words for it to remain true! One cannot redefine them on a whim and say that this statement is still true!

Paul (Sha'uwl Paulos) probably spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, and knew Greek and possibly Latin, as well. However, we're only given these words in Greek. And, it wasn't classical Greek, but "koinee" Greek which came later. In the Greek versions that have survived, the words here are ...

44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. Εἰ ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἔστιν καὶ πνευματικόν.

This is transliterated as ...

44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon. Ei estin sooma psuchikon, estin kai pneumatikon.

And, it is translated word-for-word as ...

44 It-is-sown a-body air-breathing, it-is-raised a-body air-blasting. If there-is a-body air-breathing, there-is also an-air-blasting.

These words do NOT mean "physical" and "non-physical" nor do they mean "material" and "immaterial!" It was misleading to translate "psuchikon" as "natural." It implies that the contrast would be "supernatural" at best, "unnatural" at worst! It was also misleading in the long run to translate "pneumatikon" as "spiritual," because we no longer associate the word "spirit" with "wind" as a "blast of air!"

I'm doing my best to take these words back to the way that Paul used them instead of the messed up way they've become interpreted down through the centuries.

Again, nothing is as it is simply written, making GOD THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION and only the wise of this world able to come to understanding and the leading of the Holy Spirit nothing but a lie.  

Why don't you believe that GOD is in control of what HIS words convey, and the only time they were read correctly was in the first century I don't know.  I almost wonder how you explain how the book of Daniel has been closed but will be opened up, WITH THE EXACT SAME WORDS that have always been there.  

I am going to stick with the LEADING of the Holy Spirit to all truth and not with teachings from what is believed to be a corrupted word.

let us agree to disagree, shall we?  

 

[DeighAnn]

5 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

Explain this warning to the church at Thyatira & what the consequence is for not repenting.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

THEY will experience GODS WRATH, which makes the Trib of Satan seem like a cake walk.