Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

From 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 we can determine that the gathering happens before the day of Christ which is the day of the Lord. 

And we can determine that Christians will be here on earth to see and witness the anti-christ being revealed to the world!

All the pre-tribbers I've heard always says we'll be long gone before the anti-christ arrives which is not the case.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Neither scripture refers to the second advent. 1 Thes 4 when the Lord Himself comes is the rapture of the Church which happens before the seals are opened. 1 Corinthians 15 refers to the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. Jesus will remain in the Clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

I'm not interested in the details of the seals, trumpets or bowls in regard to the Second Advent.  What Scripture says is that there will be ONE resurrection for all the saved.  1 Cor 15:23.  Or prove it doesn't say that and says something else.

So every mention of believer resurrection IS the Second Advent.  As to "rapture of the church", aren't you aware that by the time Jesus Christ returns to earth, the VAST MAJORITY of "the church" will already have died and gone to heaven.  That's what Rev 19 is all about;  preparing for the wedding supper, just before accompanying Christ back to earth at the Second Advent.

btw, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say that there will be A (singular) resurrection for the saved and the unsaved.  And these 2 resurrections will be 1,000 years apart.

Rev 20:6 says so.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

The second advent is when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His kingdom. That happens toward the end of the trumpets of wrath.

Again, the second advent is AFTER the Tribulation.  So the seals, trumpets and bowls all occur DURING the Tribulation.  

5 hours ago, The Light said:

 When the dead rise first they already have their incorruptible body.

The Bible disagrees with this.  All believers (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23) will be resurrected "when He comes".  No one gets their resurrection body before the resurrection.  That would be absurd.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

So the change of the dead and alive cannot happen at the same time in 1 Thes 4. And we know the dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Cor 15

No they are not all changed at the same time.  In 1 Cor 15 Paul is simply "dating" the event called Second Advent with resurrection.  All believers will be resurrected then.

But in 1 Thess 4, Paul gives more detail;  the dead in Christ receive their resurrection body BEFORE the ones still living.  Same event.  

5 hours ago, The Light said:

The second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

OK, what verse tells you that Jesus "remains in the clouds"?  No verse says that.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Whereas, the second advent is when Jesus returns to the earth for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth. See the 7th seal at the end of the trumpets.

Lots happens at the Second advent.  Jesus brings all the saints already in heaven with Him (Rev 19), "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected/changed, He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon, He holds the wedding supper, and sets up the MK.

Exciting times!!

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Here we see MANY are raised at the end of the great tribulation.

Yep.  The singular resurrection of "those who belong to Him".  The Second Advent.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

This happens at the 6th seal. This alone proves what you are saying is incorrect. The second advent occurs at the end of the trumpets in the 7th seal.

You have no evidence for your opinion.  I have Scripture which plainly SAYS what I believe, and I've shared with you.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Right.  v.2 SAYS there will be a resurrection of the saved and one of the unsaved.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

It seems you are skipping the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the sixth seal.

Why do you opine that Dan 12:2 occurs at the 6th seal?  

5 hours ago, The Light said:

This is the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

There is just one resurrection and one more "coming" of Jesus.  Two total.

Heb 9:28 -  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Red words refer to the First Advent.  Blue words refer to the Second Advent.

This cannot be a pre-trib event because of the 3 verses that SAY there will be A (singular) resurrection of the saved, and Rev 20:4-6 SHOWS it to be at the Second Advent.

You don't have any evidence for any of your claims, esp when you include seals, trumpets, etc.

This is a sample of unambiguous.  

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

Wrong.  Same EVENT, which is called the Second Advent.  In  1 Cor 15:23, Paul was noting the EVENT, which is "when He comes".  That is the singular resurrection event for ALL believers (those who belong to Him).

Paul says when He comes because He is coming.

Are you trying to be funny?  Of course He will be coming.  But you seem to be dodging the issue that makes you uncomfortable.  "when He comes" is a direct reference to His second advent, or second coming.  I just gave you Heb 9:28 which unambiguously tells us that Jesus comes a second time.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

There is a rapture when the Lord HIMSELF comes when those that are worthy can escape all these things that will come to pass. These things that are listed are the seals which is the tribulation.

The seals are the first set of 7 of God's wrath being poured out on earth.  There is no rapture, if by that you think Jesus will do a U-turn and take resurrected believers back to heaven, all before the Tribulation.  No verse says anything close to that.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is highly recommended that you watch, as we have been instructed, for the blessed hope.

Did the Jews in Goshen 'escape' all those things that came to pass in Egypt?  Yep.  Did God have to remove any of them from Goshen?  Nope.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

And we can determine that Christians will be here on earth to see and witness the anti-christ being revealed to the world!

There will be Christians on earth, but it won't be the Church.

4 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

All the pre-tribbers I've heard always says we'll be long gone before the anti-christ arrives which is not the case.

No. The Church will be gone, as we are gone before the seals are opened. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel has it's eyes opened.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

dead and alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump

Right - Say the dead and the living will be changed at the last trump at the second coming- but of course that wasn’t all the saints that were raptured because you had another rapture and resurrection for another set of people before the tribulation so you’re still not agreeing with Paul saying that all will be changed at the last Trump, you’re saying part of the Saints will be changed and part will be changed later at the last Trump. That is not what Paul said. 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

26 minutes ago, The Light said:

There will be Christians on earth, but it won't be the Church.

So you recommend cutting 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 out of our bibles?

Cause that IS saying Christians will be here to see the anti-christ be revealed.



 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Stan Murff

[The Light]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm not interested in the details of the seals, trumpets or bowls in regard to the Second Advent.  What Scripture says is that there will be ONE resurrection for all the saved.  1 Cor 15:23.  Or prove it doesn't say that and says something else.

So every mention of believer resurrection IS the Second Advent.

This is an error in logic. Here is 1st Corinthians 15:23

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ is the first fruits of the dead. When the Lord Himself comes for the Church, the dead in Christ rise first. Christ will return for the alive that remain. After these events occur, which is 1 Thes 4 that harvest is over.

Then we have 144,000 first fruits. When Christ returns at the 6th seal, they that are Christs at His coming are changed, both the dead and alive in the twinkling of an eye. This is the second harvest.

And we haven't even gotten to the second advent which occurs at the end of the trumpets.

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 As to "rapture of the church", aren't you aware that by the time Jesus Christ returns to earth, the VAST MAJORITY of "the church" will already have died and gone to heaven.  That's what Rev 19 is all about;  preparing for the wedding supper, just before accompanying Christ back to earth at the Second Advent.

Ok. The good thing is that you understand that those at the marriage supper return with Jesus at the second advent. Here is the great multitude in heaven.

Revelation 19

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

What you are not grasping is that the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. See the kings and priests of Revelation 5. Then at the 6th seal we have the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and returns with Lord at the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds at this coming. All return to heaven and hence we have the great multitude in heaven AFTER THE 6TH SEAL.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

btw, Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all say that there will be A (singular) resurrection for the saved and the unsaved.  And these 2 resurrections will be 1,000 years apart.

No. Daniel 12:2 says that many of the righteous are raised and also unrighteous. This occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as we can see that it happens at the time of the great tribulation. And the TRIBULAITON IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 20:6 says so.

Again, the second advent is AFTER the Tribulation.

No. The second coming is AFTER the Tribulation.

The second Advert is AFTER the Wrath of God.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 So the seals, trumpets and bowls all occur DURING the Tribulation.

No sir. Tribulation and wrath are completely different event. The tribulation happens during the 1st 6 seals. The 7th seal is the trumpets of God's Wrath. The 7 bowls are also Gods wrath. The trumpets and bowls occur in the same time frame. They are different views of the same time period with different information.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 The Bible disagrees with this. All believers (those who belong to Him - 1 Cor 15:23) will be resurrected "when He comes".

He comes for the Church before the seals are opened. There is a resurrection at that time........... the dead in Christ.

He comes for the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. There is a resurrection then, which we see in Daniel 12 and we also see the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 No one gets their resurrection body before the resurrection.  That would be absurd.

Agreed. And yet part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in which will happen at the pretrib rapture. 

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

No they are not all changed at the same time.  In 1 Cor 15 Paul is simply "dating" the event called Second Advent with resurrection.  All believers will be resurrected then.

1 Corinthians 15 happens at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. This is the second coming. See the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

The second advent happens at the end of the trumpets. Here is the judgement.

Revelation 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

But in 1 Thess 4, Paul gives more detail;  the dead in Christ receive their resurrection body BEFORE the ones still living.  Same event.  

Nope. Not possible. In 1 Thes 4 the dead in Christ rise first. That means they have their incorruptible bodies before the alive that remain have theirs. In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 cannot be the same event.

And neither of these occur at the second advent.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, what verse tells you that Jesus "remains in the clouds"?  No verse says that.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is a different view of Jesus remaining in the clouds at the 6th seal. 

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Lots happens at the Second advent.  Jesus brings all the saints already in heaven with Him (Rev 19), "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected/changed, He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon, He holds the wedding supper, and sets up the MK.

Exciting times!!

You see the great multitude that return to earth with Jesus at the second advent. They get to heaven with the rapture of the Church and the gathering from heaven and earth at the second coming at the 6th seal.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Yep.  The singular resurrection of "those who belong to Him".  The Second Advent.

You have no evidence for your opinion.  I have Scripture which plainly SAYS what I believe, and I've shared with you.

Actually, all the evidence is in my corner. You may not at this time understand it, but that does not change the truth.

The first thing you need to figure out is the second coming at the 6th seal.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Right.  v.2 SAYS there will be a resurrection of the saved and one of the unsaved.

Why do you opine that Dan 12:2 occurs at the 6th seal?  

Daniel 12 occurs at the 6th seal because it happens at the time of trouble like no other. When the tribulation is over the Lord returns. The righteous that are on earth both dead and alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. Verse 14-16 are the harvest of the righteous.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the unrighteous being cast into the wrath of God. The wrath God is the 7th seal.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

There is just one resurrection and one more "coming" of Jesus.  Two total.

Jesus comes for the dead in Christ, the barley harvest. Jesus returns for the alive that remain. The wheat harvest.

Jesus comes again for the 144,000 first fruits........seen here.

Revelation 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth, the second coming.

Jesus comes with the armies of heaven and sets His feet on the mount of Olives, the second advent.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

Heb 9:28 -  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Red words refer to the First Advent.  Blue words refer to the Second Advent.

This cannot be a pre-trib event because of the 3 verses that SAY there will be A (singular) resurrection of the saved, and Rev 20:4-6 SHOWS it to be at the Second Advent.

You don't have any evidence for any of your claims, esp when you include seals, trumpets, etc.

This is a sample of unambiguous.  

Just so you know when the color is changed, it sometimes seems to mess up the editor.

So unto to those who look for Him will he appear a second time. Who is looking for and waiting for the Messiah? It is those that understand that He is coming before the tribulation. And when He comes, I suspect those are who He will appear to. 

After the rapture of the Church, what happens? There are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. Then what happens? Those of the 12 tribes will be looking for Him to appear immediately after the tribulation. That coming is at the 6th seal. Then there is a great multitude in heaven.

When He comes at the second advent, who will be looking for Him? Those of the nation of Israel that are in the place of protection.

 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

So you recommend cutting 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 out of our bibles?

Cause that IS saying Christians will be here to see the anti-christ be revealed.

 

No. Don't cut anything out of the Bible. Study to show thyself approved.

2 Thes 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Looking at these verses tell us that the when the Lord comes, it will be before the day of Christ which is the day of the Lord. At that time there will be a gathering.

The gathering is shown here.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Christians that see the Antichrist revealed will be the Jews that keep the commandments of God and also have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

At the gathering from heaven and earth, it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes who at that time believe that are gathered from the earth.

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

There will be Christians on earth, but it won't be the Church.

No. The Church will be gone, as we are gone before the seals are opened. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel has it's eyes opened.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Do you know what is written in the sealed book?  Because if you do, then it is no longer sealed and HERE YOU ARE.

[The Light]

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

Do you know what is written in the sealed book? 

Absolutely

1 minute ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Because if you do, then it is no longer sealed and HERE YOU ARE.

Wow another incorrect conclusion. So you know nothing about the 7 seals?