Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And, there are NO verses describing Jesus taking any resurrected believers to heaven.

You meant  no scriptures about Jesus taking those who are alive and remain taken to heaven, right?

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

1 minute ago, transmogrified said:

You meant  no scriptures about Jesus taking those who are alive and remain taken to heaven, right?

Is that guy joking???  There IS in fact scripture as you just pointed out.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

This is where the error shows up with two raptures..all the saints have to get up there to heaven to come back...there is no scripture showing OT Israel, or the Trib saints going up to heaven as a separate group or groups...rather it shows God gathers his elect at the second coming and that is the elect...the elect or any portion thereof were not previously gathered...and how are they gathered? The dead are raised up to heaven at the second coming, then he gathers both groups, the dead and living to the clouds where the living meet the dead and then both groups descend down to the earth.

There is lots of Scripture showing the OT Israel going up to heaven.  Jesus from the beginning of His ministry told us He would be doing that very thing.  He spoke of it again when speaking to Martha before Lazarus was resurrected.  He spoke of those under the New Covenant being raised up and following Him to be where was and HE said at that time He would receive them unto HIMSELF and like when He sends out the angels to gather.  We see those who slept being led up to heaven when He ascended.  We see their graves opened.  We know they were not raised up in flesh and blood bodies. We know after Christ made the whole lump holy and the first fruits of God were raised and ever since it has been every man in his own order.  We know that it will go that way until He returns when those who are His, those who have not taken the mark of the beast will be changed and joined to those in the clouds who returned with Him.  We know we are raised up and will be like Him when we will see Him and He was raised up in body.  

And because we know all of those things, we know there are multiple times the living, those who NEVER DIE are raised up making it IMPOSSIBLE for them to be 'the dead' that rise when He returns.  Someone who never dies, is never dead.  Sure, their 'flesh and blood' body dies, but THEY go on living and they are raised in a spiritual body and follow Him, and will be in the place He went to having prepared the way.  

So, I disagree with what you are putting forth here as to THAT part, but I am in total agreement with all of the PRE TRIB parts and thank you for what I believe are very solid arguments as far as that is concerned.  





 

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

First sentence:  the word "firstfruits" refers to Jesus being the FIRST human to receive a glorified immortal body.  We know this from Acts 26:23.  I'll let you do the research.  But it says that Christ "is the FIRST to rise from the dead".  Real clear.

Amen! Not Christ the first fruits plus some other saints, then afterwards those that are Christs at his coming… Paul’s statement on all will be changed at the same time at the last trumpet fixes every problem if it was just believed.. You can’t have ALL those that belong to Christ being changed at the same time and then have another group somewhere that was not included… There are no saints that  don’t belong to Christ so if (All that belong to Christ) are all changed at the last trump then both the timing and who is being resurrected are all settled …the first phase would be Christ being raised , and the second phase is “Those who are Christs at his coming… not at his comings, not part of those who are Christs at his coming.. ALL WILL BE BE CHANGED AT HIS COMING!!

[transmogrified]

11 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Is that guy joking???  There IS in fact scripture as you just pointed out.

I think it was a typo.. 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

I fully understand that Jesus is the first fruits of the dead, as He rises from the dead. Let's use some common sense. You say that there is one resurrection of the righteous. The Word says the dead in Christ rise first. Were old testament saints in Christ? Or is it the dead of the Church that is in Christ, that will be raised first?

1 Cor 15:23 says "those who belong to Him".  So, just who does "belong to Him"?  Can you honestly claim that there are saved people who don't?

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Christ is the first fruits of the dead. However, the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. The Gentiles are the first harvest.

Except there are no verses that speak of either of the singular resurrections as "harvests". That is just a construct.  It is not in the Bible.  It is, however, a way to explain how to squeeze more than one resurrection of saved people.  But the Bible knows nothing of it.

Where is thJesere clear evidence of this, that the 6th seal is the second coming?  That would mean Jesus would come DURING the Tribulation, which isn't possible.

Heb 928 refutes that.  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Can you prove that this verse isn't about the second advent?  I know you can't.

And this verse proves that Jesus comes to earth only twice, which are the 2 advents.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

I got it... a "keyboard malfunction"

It pays to buy the higher quality keyboards for more accurate postings!



 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Stan Murff

[MattLovesCoffee]

Congrats on a 20 year old post, and a few months. Wow, this forum is something else.

Nevertheless, Leviticus 14:33-53! The Torah describes a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a wonderful word picture. Marxism (the religion of man, leftism, socialism, humanism, etc) is the reddish mold. Greenish mold is Islam. The two plagues in the world today. Notice the priest comes to call people out of the house first, then he shuts the house for 7 days. Anybody found in the house during the 7 days must wash their clothes. The priest returns after 7 days to rip out the infected stones and casts them out to an unclean place. There are still two churches, those who are kept from the hour of trial (us faithful now), then those who must buy clean linen garments (who become believers during the Tribulation). The second group is not called to leave the house because either they will survive to the end of the Tribulation or will be beheaded for rejecting the AC.

The next possible date for the Rapture is this come Friday into Saturday, on the first day of the seventh month. If not this week then we wait another year until the next Day of Trumpets.

The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought. Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come. Yes, those who live uprightly will have peace as they rest on their couches.
Yesha 'yahu (Isa) 57:1‭-‬2 CJB

[FreeGrace]

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

Second Advent occurs to END the Tribulation.  That's how to describe it.  Forget the trumpets.  Doesn't matter.  Rev 20 SHOWS Christ at the Second Advent.

You think that the second advent occurs at the end of the tribulation.

It cannot possibly at any other time.  There is only 1, as proven by all the verses that speak of a singular resurrection.  This isn't arguable.  And Rev 20 20 proves that He comes back at the end of the Tribulation.  How can you think that He comes at any other time?

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

You think that tribulation and wrath are the same thing.

Can you explain with Scripture why they aren't?  The word "wrath" means anger, and that's what we see throughout the Tribulation; God pouring out His wrath on humanity.  I've already explained this?  Can you refute what I've said?

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

Scripture proves this is incorrect. So you think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming AND the second advent when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

And I've explained this as well.  Matt 24:29 SAYS "immediately AFTER the tribulation", so again, this isn't arguable.  Have you just missed these clear verses, or have you just dismissed them?

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

Let's see if that is so. Is there anything in these verses that leads you to think that Jesus has come leading His armies for battle and that He has set up His kingdom on earth? You are probably thinking IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Why not?  And Rev 19 is very clear as well.

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

Matthew 24:29-31

But the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. And then the wrath of God begins. 

This is just a statement to me.  Where is the proof positive?  For me, ALL the seals, trumpets and bowls are what happens DURING the tribulation.  The Trib is over when Jesus returns the SECOND TIME.  Heb 9:28

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

Can we prove that with scripture. Yes. We see at the opening of the 6th seal the signs of the sun, moon and stars

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Yet, not ANY mention of Jesus returning.  So, no proof at all.  Just opinion, speculation, hopeful wishing.

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

We see in Matthew 24 the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24

1 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Scripture has marked the end of the tribulation at the sixth seal. The 6th seal is BEFORE wrath.

Again, opinion.  You are ASSUMING that the signs only occur once.  I don't.  I have given you verses that absolutely prove that there will be just one resurrection of the saved, and that will occur at the second advent, which is at the end of the trib.

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

What this tells you is that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the second advent.

Except v.29 actually SAYS it is.  Such as, "immediately AFTER the tribulation".  

Since you don't believe that Matt 24 is the second advent, just WHEN do you think the Second Advent will occur?

36 minutes ago, The Light said:

The second advent happens at the end of wrath at the 7th trumpet of wrath. Wrath does not happen until the 7th seal is opened. And the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

I hope you consider these things.

This is just confusion.  So, the trib is ended BEFORE Jesus returns?  Really?  How long after the trib does the second advent occur?  Days, months, years????

And, what is occurring during this 'pause' between the end of the Trib and Jesus' return to earth?

Oh, and please provide verses that clearly (unambiguously) state what you are claiming.

[FreeGrace]

37 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

You meant  no scriptures about Jesus taking those who are alive and remain taken to heaven, right?

I mean no resurrected believers, either OT or NT, dead or alive.

I've been asking for such verses for a long time on a lot of threads, and still no takers to show that I'm in error.