Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

36 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Is that guy joking???  There IS in fact scripture as you just pointed out.

Are YOU joking?  Please provide any verse that clearly describes Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  

If you can't, the joke's on you.  

[FreeGrace]

35 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

There is lots of Scripture showing the OT Israel going up to heaven.  Jesus from the beginning of His ministry told us He would be doing that very thing.  He spoke of it again when speaking to Martha before Lazarus was resurrected.

OK, DA, you know the drill.  Where is "it written"?  That's the only way to believe what people claim.  Just like the Bereans.

Let's see all these "lots of Scripture".

[FreeGrace]

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Amen! Not Christ the first fruits plus some other saints, then afterwards those that are Christs at his coming… Paul’s statement on all will be changed at the same time at the last trumpet fixes every problem if it was just believed.. You can’t have ALL those that belong to Christ being changed at the same time and then have another group somewhere that was not included… There are no saints that  don’t belong to Christ so if (All that belong to Christ) are all changed at the last trump then both the timing and who is being resurrected are all settled …the first phase would be Christ being raised , and the second phase is “Those who are Christs at his coming… not at his comings, not part of those who are Christs at his coming.. ALL WILL BE BE CHANGED AT HIS COMING!!

Bingo, Sir!!

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

12 minutes ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought. Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come. Yes, those who live uprightly will have peace as they rest on their couches.
Yesha 'yahu (Isa) 57:1‭-‬2 CJB

Good verse!

[FreeGrace]

10 minutes ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

Nevertheless, Leviticus 14:33-53! The Torah describes a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a wonderful word picture.

No, it describes a literal practice of how to get rid of mildew.  However, some will come up with a a lot of various figurative pictures of what it describes.

Yet, there is nothing about a trip to heaven.  Nor a resurrection.

10 minutes ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

Marxism (the religion of man, leftism, socialism, humanism, etc) is the reddish mold. Greenish mold is Islam. The two plagues in the world today. Notice the priest comes to call people out of the house first, then he shuts the house for 7 days. Anybody found in the house during the 7 days must wash their clothes. The priest returns after 7 days to rip out the infected stones and casts them out to an unclean place. There are still two churches, those who are kept from the hour of trial (us faithful now), then those who must buy clean linen garments (who become believers during the Tribulation). The second group is not called to leave the house because either they will survive to the end of the Tribulation or will be beheaded for rejecting the AC.

Fanciful, for sure.

10 minutes ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

The next possible date for the Rapture is this come Friday into Saturday, on the first day of the seventh month. If not this week then we wait another year until the next Day of Trumpets.

Did you remove 1 Cor 15:23 from your copy?  Only 1 resurrection, which will be all believers from Adam forward.  The Bible says so.  It's yours to believe or not.  I do believe it.

10 minutes ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought. Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come. Yes, those who live uprightly will have peace as they rest on their couches.
Yesha 'yahu (Isa) 57:1‭-‬2 CJB

Is this your evidence for a trip to heaven by the words "taken away"?

And I guess there are/will be couches in heaven.  Who knew?

[transmogrified]

11 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

raptures..all the saints have to get up there to heaven to come back...there is no scripture showing OT Israel, or the Trib saints going up to heaven as a separate group or groups...rather it shows God gathers his elect at the second coming and that is the elect...the elect or any portion thereof were not previously gathered...and how are they gathered? The dead are raised up to heaven at the second coming, then he gathers both groups, the dead and living to the clouds where the living meet the dead and then both groups descend down to the earth.

There is lots of Scripture showing the OT Israel going up to heaven.

I didn’t mean the resurrected OT saints and resurrected Trib saints don’t go to heaven .. I meant pre trib only falsely isolates out a group of saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation as being the resurrected saints that go heaven… what I was meaning that there is no categorizing of these certain group of saints get resurrected at one time and another group of saints being resurrected at another time.. in other words when it states the tribulation saints were resurrected it does not mean there were no other saints resurrected at that same time, rather that particular scripture is only stating those that were killed during the tribulation were resurrected … again Paul fixed ANY misunderstanding by saying WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. meaning all the OT and NT saints will be changed at the same time… same with “many of those that sleep in the dust shall awake in Daniel 12 - Its not a separate resurrection for only believing Israelites because as Jesus said all the saints God had were given to Christ … but the word “many” of them that sleep sometimes stumps people that leads to assuming some will be raised and some won’t.. The truth is the word “many” means “multitudes” or only describing the quantity of those raised will be great, not that some are raised and some are  not… also shown when scripture says Jesus died for the sins of “many.” Did he really die for quite a lot of people but not for all? Of course he died for all but many is used as a synecdoche where a part is put for the whole… You can see it is clarified when other scriptures show Jesus gave himself a ransom for ALL.. 

    Of course all OT and NT saints are resurrected and go to heaven and then come down from heaven with him fulfilling zech That he will come and ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM..  The scriptures pre trib points out in 1 Thess.4 are alleged to pertain only to saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation, what I was pointing out was that the 1Thess. 4 resurrection of the dead in Christ pertains to all saints, and not as pretrib stated to only a specific group of saints…

Remember the olive tree analogy by Paul ISRAEL WAS THE NATURAL BRANCHES… but ISRAEL IS NOT THE TREE… The tree is Jesus as Jesus said “I am the true vine and ye are the branches… What does that mean? It means Israel was in the true vine before we were ever grafted in.. What does that mean? It means Israel was cut off from who because of their unbelief? They were cut off from Jesus which was the true vine  .. so they were IN JESUS, or IN CHRIST , and so what happens when they repent and accept Jesus as their true Messiah ? They are again grafted BACK INTO THE SAME VINE THEY WERE CUT OFF FROM WHICH WAS JESUS..  As he said The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit… We can see it also when he said SOME of the branches were broken off.. What does that mean? It means some of believing Israel REMAINED TRUE TO JESUS, meaning they WERE ALREADY IN JESUS AND JUST REMAINED FAITHFUL TO HIM BY ACCEPTING HIM WHEN HE CAME IN THE FLESH…

    I was emphasizing the fact that the scriptures pre trib isolated as pertains to them pertain to all saints…

 

[transmogrified]

36 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

mean no resurrected believers, either OT or NT, dead or alive.

I've been asking for such verses for a long time on a lot of threads, and still no takers to show that I'm in error.

The two prophets are NT saints that were killed and the spirit of life from God entered them… they heard a voice saying come up hither and they ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD…and their enemies beheld them.. when he said the dead in Christ rise first it means they are taken to heaven so they can come DOWN from heaven with Jesus.. The armies that FOLLOWED Jesus were the saints and angels.. for them to FOLLOW Jesus down it means they are BEHIND him and he goes before them.. they have to be UP THERE TO COME DOWN.. this is the whole problem with pre trib- the only way the dead in Christ GET UP THERE IS THAT THEY RISE FIRST… but in order for the living to MEET them the dead have to be descending  down .. so the dead come down from above meaning that is where they were while the living go up from the earth meaning that is where they were, and both MEET IN THE CLOUDS 

   How did all those people shown to be IN HEAVEN get there and why would the 2 prophets have to ASCEND up there to be IN HEAVEN meaning THEY WERE NOT THERE BEFORE THEY GOT THERE

[transmogrified]

For him to gather his elect FROM the uttermost part of heaven means there were saints that were in the uttermost part of heaven- not just the sky where the birds fly.. 

[transmogrified]

Isaiah - I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.   His sanctified ones.. the saints… come from the end of heaven…the way they got there is the dead in Christ rose first.. this is not meaning they were resurrected first for both the living and the dead were changed at THE EXACT SAME TIME… When the dead was resurrected they were not resurrected with the same body but rather this mortal puts on immortality.. and as Paul the body that was down is not the body that would be….. so the “rising first” means they ascended first before the living ascends and the dead are not taken to the clouds but to the uttermost part of heaven where Jesus is and then it states the armies THAT WERE IN HEAVEN Follow him down— he doesn’t pick them up in the clouds on his down he BRINGS THEM WITH HIM.. they are in the uttermost part of heaven - he does not pick them up in the clouds

[MattLovesCoffee]

FreeGrace, been a long time since I commented on this forum, but nevertheless, being somewhat dismissive is expected but I know it can be frustrating at times when it appears obvious but others just aren't getting it. So, shalom, let us both know that neither of us has absolute knowledge.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

No, it describes a literal practice of how to get rid of mildew.  However, some will come up with a a lot of various figurative pictures of what it describes.

Yet, there is nothing about a trip to heaven.  Nor a resurrection.

Please, do not take me as being sarcastic here but I have no choice but to throw in a rhetorical question here. To paraphrase Paul's 1 Corinthians 9:9, is God actually concerned about the mildew in a house or is He telling this for our sake? If we are going to dismiss the symbols and signs, then communion is nothing more than just eating bread and drinking wine and water baptism is nothing more that having a cool off, and Abraham and Isaac has no bearing on the Father and Christ. And do not get me started on the Temple. No, wait, even the Temple confirms that the fifth item (bowl of incense) and fifth festival (Trumpets) in chronological order is regarding a rising up to God, a beautiful aroma to God, a joyful noise. So why would God give an elaborate law for mold, seemingly illogical as well, if He could have just said rip out the mold and fix it yourselves?

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Did you remove 1 Cor 15:23 from your copy?  Only 1 resurrection, which will be all believers from Adam forward.  The Bible says so.  It's yours to believe or not.  I do believe it.

No, I did not. Same as I did not remove 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I see three separate resurrections still to come:

1) On the Day of Trumpets, pre-Tribulation, before the 1000 years of peace. All those who died after Christ's resurrection and those alive now. Christ does not return this day but rather calls believers away from the world, suddenly zapped away into the heavens. It is this event that causes the 10 nations of the Balkans to rise to power, and from it the Antichrist.

2) Upon Christ's physical return to earth on the Day of Atonement, all those who were beheaded during the Tribulation are resurrected. It does not mention it but I assume there will be some believers who die by other means (elderly, car crash, etc.) and will be resurrected as well, but those alive upon His return will not be changed, rather they go on to repopulate the earth for the Millennial Sabbath and will go keep the Feast of Tabernacles every year (Zechariah 14:16-21). They will be gathered to Him but not changed.

3) And assumed at the very end of the seventh millennium, all the believers who died during the 1000 years of peace. And people who did not go to war against Jerusalem, but survived to the end will be changed (like a second Rapture).

Regarding point 3, Scripture does not give any details about how events are going to play out other than Satan will be released at the end to deceive the nations for one last hurrah. As I understand it God seals up prophecy and visions for the Millennial Reign (Daniel 9:24). Mankind will have 1000 years of God's literal presence, it will be blissful, and sin will be condemned and judged swiftly, but God will not give specifics this time as He has for our time, the Bible is complete. God will need to set Satan free in order to see if the humans truly love Him, will they choose Him or Satan. They will have 7000 years of history to ride on but it will be like Adam and Eve, a blissful state for 1000 years then suddenly Satan is back.

In regards to 1 Corinthians 15:23 I see both the pre-Tribulation Rapture and Second Coming as being related to Christ's coming, the events are fulfilled apart by a few years but both form part of His coming. In regards to 2 Thessalonians 2 it is a similar thing, Paul is referring to the Day of YHWH, Yeshua's actual return to put away the Antichrist. Paul says only then will all tribulations stop, plus Paul was telling them that their tribulations are not the tribulations of the Tribulation since the Antichrist had not been revealed yet. They were clearly told by someone Christ had fully returned but Paul is not being specific about the Day or Trumpets and Day of Atonement, rather he is simply saying to not be fooled into believing the Day of YHWH has already come because it obviously had not.

Perhaps a heretic statement here, but the Apostles did not know everything. It appears some of them thought Christ's return would be in their lifetime. It does not make them wrong though. But we can know that the early church eventually figured out it would take another 2000 years. The Epistle of Barnabas (extra-biblical yes) records, in chapter 15, the Sabbath Rest being a prophecy, in that Christ will resolve sin in a period of 6000 years. Peter assumed "one day is as a thousand years" is referring to God's patience without realising that his words (2 Peter 3) is telling us when God returns, in that each day of creation correlates to the major biblical theme of each millennium starting at Adam's fall. We are now in the sixth millennium, the year 5990, and man has filled the earth and the religion of man is dominant. The fifth millennium covered 33AD to 1033AD, what happened? The Gentiles flourished spiritually because the Gospel went to the nations (symbolically called the seas), Day 5 of creation says the seas flourished with life, followed by flying creatures (there's that rising up theme again). Some will argue for a 30AD crucifixion but that's besides the point of this topic.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Is this your evidence for a trip to heaven by the words "taken away"?

Matthew 24 describes two separate events in regards to being taken, and it references them in reverse order. It first talks about the Son of Man being revealed in the heavens, fully and in glory. Christ mentions in relation to this day, the Day of YHWH, that He takes away the wicked while at the same time gathering His chosen people. Then He goes on to talk about the Fig Tree and this passage use a popular Jewish idiomatic expression to refer to the Day of Trumpets. The phrase "nobody knows the day nor hour" is referring to the Day of Trumpets, not the Day of Atonement (a.k.a. The Day of YHWH). Two different events commemorated on two different calendar days. Christians would know this if they knew the Torah and Jewish culture and traditions, but they end up conflating ideas due to their lack of understanding the Torah. The festivals (being prophetic events fulfilled by Christ) are relevant to all believers, but Christians are quick to dismiss them as being Jewish and not binding to Gentiles (Zechariah 14 says the opposite), not realising they actually tell us the exact day of their fulfilments, and through other prophecies God has told us the exact year they will be fulfilled. It is how Christ knew the day He would be crucified and when He would be raised to life.

Shalom.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by MattLovesCoffee
One spelling, one removal of duplicate word, one minor clarification added.