Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The coming pre-trib. rapture of the Church, as taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul:

 BMt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

 

 

Misuse of those verses are a tradition of the Pre-trib Rapture school. You only use what benefits following their false tradition.

What Jesus really taught in Matt.24:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

In this Matt.24 version, it is speaking of the "asleep" saints that Jesus brings with Him being gathered on that day, after the tribulation.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But in this Mark 13 version, His CHURCH ON EARTH is being "caught up" to Him on that day after that tribulation.

This is very important to note, because it perfectly aligns with what Paul taught in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture about the Church being "caught up". The word "elect" is merely a word pointing to those in Christ Jesus. It is not a privy word for Jewish believers only. So I don't know what you're trying to establish with that elect idea.

 

With the Luke 21 example, the word for "escape" is Greek ekpheugo, which can also be translated as 'to flee'. It does not point specifically to a rapture, otherwise you'd have a word like harpazo there ("caught up"). In Luke 21 Jesus told those in Jerusalem to FLEE to the mountains when they see the armies surrounding the city (Luke 21:20-21). So to insert a rapture into that would be an addition to the Scriptures that does not exist.

In the John 14:2-4 example, Jesus said He will come AGAIN, and receive them to Himself, that where He is, they may be also. This is very easy to understand, but only if we pay attention to Scripture that shows us WHERE our Lord Jesus will be WHEN HE RETURNS. He returns to Jerusalem as written in Zech.14 and Acts 1, etc. He is coming back to this earth to reign, to sit upon the throne of David which has always been an earthly throne. Zion will be on earth where Jerusalem is today. And that is where we are going with Him to. So this is actually very easy, IF one is paying attention to where our Lord Jesus will be when He returns!

The "mansions" Jesus mentioned means abodes. They are laid out in the Ezekiel temple layout of Ezekiel 40 forward. The "Zadok" there represent Christ's elect Church who reign with Him, as that name means 'the Just'.

[Ezra]

20 minutes ago, Salty said:

Misuse of those verses are a tradition of the Pre-trib Rapture school.

Looks like you are misusing Scripture by referencing the Great Tribulation. As I have indicated several times there is no connection between the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation and the Rapture of the Church.

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

The following Refutes your above opinions:

Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

Actually it's Zechariah 14 that shows us where we are going after being "caught up" to Jesus and the "asleep" saints:

Zech 14:4-5
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

You think you're going to live in the clouds? in the air? because the 1 Thess.4 Scripture says nothing about entering into Heaven itself, but only stops the description with that idea of being gathering up into the clouds and air when Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven.

But our Lord in Zechariah 14 was SPECIFIC of where we are going to be with Jesus on that day, on earth, at that area of Jerusalem.

This also is confirmed as being on the earth with His promise of Rev.5:10 about being made kings and priests and reigning on earth with Him.

 

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.
 

Those ideas are not Biblical. They are traditions of men built off of the Pre-trib Rapture school's theories.

1. The ONLY time Jesus DESCENDS from Heaven towards this earth is at His second coming of Zech.14 and Acts 1, and Rev.19, and 2 Thess.2:1-3, etc. He is not going to DESCEND to this earth twice, which is how it would have to be to make the Pre-trib Rapture theory true. Thus there is only ONE coming event of our Lord Jesus when He descends to this earth, and that is on the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night" like He said when He comes (Rev.16:15).

2. The only... time Jesus returns is at His second coming on the last day of this world. That is when 1 Thess.4 will occur, and not any other time. That will only occur after the tribulation like He said (Matt.24; Mark 13).

3. None of those Scriptures you quoted mentioned a marriage with Jesus. Nor do any of those Scriptures point to a Pre-trib Rapture.

4. The 1 Thess.4 example is about 'how' Jesus comes and we are gathered, but the 1 Thess.5 chapter is Paul continuing the matter with the 'when'. Paul shows there it's the "day of the Lord" that comes as a thief in the night.

And Jesus said to His Church on the 6th Vial:

Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
KJV

 

[Salty]

3 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Looks like you are misusing Scripture by referencing the Great Tribulation. As I have indicated several times there is no connection between the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation and the Rapture of the Church.

The "great tribulation" Jesus warning in Matt.24 is to His Church on earth for the end of days. He was covering the signs of the seals of Rev.6, and Revelation was specifically given through John to the Church. The word 'tribulation' is translated 'affliction' in the Mark 13 KJV example.

 

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

The "great tribulation" Jesus warning in Matt.24 is to His Church on earth for the end of days. He was covering the signs of the seals of Rev.6, and Revelation was specifically given through John to the Church. The word 'tribulation' is translated 'affliction' in the Mark 13 KJV example.

Here's the point you are missing:

Rapture = Ultimate Salvation

Tribulation and Great Tribulation = Judgment

[Quasar93]

9 hours ago, Salty said:

Misuse of those verses are a tradition of the Pre-trib Rapture school. You only use what benefits following their false tradition.

What Jesus really taught in Matt.24:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

In this Matt.24 version, it is speaking of the "asleep" saints that Jesus brings with Him being gathered on that day, after the tribulation.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But in this Mark 13 version, His CHURCH ON EARTH is being "caught up" to Him on that day after that tribulation.

This is very important to note, because it perfectly aligns with what Paul taught in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture about the Church being "caught up". The word "elect" is merely a word pointing to those in Christ Jesus. It is not a privy word for Jewish believers only. So I don't know what you're trying to establish with that elect idea.

 

With the Luke 21 example, the word for "escape" is Greek ekpheugo, which can also be translated as 'to flee'. It does not point specifically to a rapture, otherwise you'd have a word like harpazo there ("caught up"). In Luke 21 Jesus told those in Jerusalem to FLEE to the mountains when they see the armies surrounding the city (Luke 21:20-21). So to insert a rapture into that would be an addition to the Scriptures that does not exist.

In the John 14:2-4 example, Jesus said He will come AGAIN, and receive them to Himself, that where He is, they may be also. This is very easy to understand, but only if we pay attention to Scripture that shows us WHERE our Lord Jesus will be WHEN HE RETURNS. He returns to Jerusalem as written in Zech.14 and Acts 1, etc. He is coming back to this earth to reign, to sit upon the throne of David which has always been an earthly throne. Zion will be on earth where Jerusalem is today. And that is where we are going with Him to. So this is actually very easy, IF one is paying attention to where our Lord Jesus will be when He returns!

The "mansions" Jesus mentioned means abodes. They are laid out in the Ezekiel temple layout of Ezekiel 40 forward. The "Zadok" there represent Christ's elect Church who reign with Him, as that name means 'the Just'.

 

FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.19:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven.  The only reference in the Gospels pertaining to a rapture, are the ones I posted that you quoted.  However, the Church is not in site, anywhere in the Gospels.  And don't try telling me the Scriptures I have posted is a miss-use of them!  Capiche?!

Supposing you explain to me how the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb, in Rev.19:7-8, and is then seen returning with Jesus, in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven in Rev.18:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5? 

The following is the order of end times events for your edification:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.
 

Fully endorsed by the following :

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 13, 2016 by Quasar93

[Salty]

3 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.19:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven.  The only reference in the Gospels pertaining to a rapture, are the ones I posted that you quoted.  However, the Church is not in site, anywhere in the Gospels.  And don't try telling me the Scriptures I have posted is a miss-use of them!  Capiche?!

Any Christian who has studied their Bible well knows Jesus was sent to Jerusalem first, and was rejected, and that the 'Christian' Church could not start until after His death and resurrection, offering the New Covenant through His Blood. That of course is irrelevant to determining what parts of God's Word are for Christ's Church.

In Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul when speaking to Gentile believers in Christ's Church, said through Christ they had become "nigh" to the covenants and promises God gave Israel, and were now part of the "commonwealth of Israel".

In Romans 11, Paul taught that believing Gentiles as a "wild olive tree", are graffed in.

Rom 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
KJV

Note Paul said "and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree". Paul did NOT preach the Christian Church as a separate entity from the olive tree that Israelites believers on Christ were naturally born into and were established by belief on Jesus.

Paul said:

Gal 3:28
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
KJV

You've already shown enough for me to know that you heed some of Hyper-Dispensationalism's 1800's ideas like only Paul's Epistles are meant for Christ's Church. If that were so, then Paul would not have made it so clear that believing Gentiles are graffed into the covenants and promises God gave to Israel, which is why Paul used the label "commonwealth of Israel" for Gentiles in Ephesians 2.

Furthermore, as I have said before, the signs of the end Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Mark 13 are the Seals of Revelation 6. And Christ gave His Revelation to His Church through His servant John! The events written in Revelation are hard-linked with events given in both the Four Gospels and... in the Old Testament prophets! That means those Books are for us too, Christ's Church! Capiche?!!!

 

Quote

Supposing you explain to me how the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb, in Rev.19:7-8, and is then seen returning with Jesus, in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven in Rev.18:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5? 

At the start of Rev.19 is a continuation description of the destruction of the Babylon harlot of Rev.18. But the marriage supper is not until Jesus gathers His Church and all go to Jerusalem on earth, where the marriage of the Lamb and wedding supper takes place (see Rev.21:2 and Rev.21:9-10).

The wedding supper does not begin until the guests are sitted down with Jesus at the start of His Millennium reign with His priests and kings.

Rev 19:7-9
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV

That is happening during the start of the 1,000 years of Rev.20. It's about the time when the rewards are handed out to Christ's faithful elect saints who will reign with Him on earth.

Isaiah 54 & 62 speak of Jerusalem as a bride which marries. So does Rev.21:

Rev 21:2-3
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
KJV

Now then, if you have difficulty in understanding those early Rev.19:6-9 events are about the Millennium timing, then that shows you have not understood how that many Scriptures in God's Word, especially the OT prophets and Revelation, can jump timelines and subjects very quickly between past, present, and future.

Starting at Rev.19:11 moves the timeline back to the final day of this world, just prior to the Millennium. The army in Heaven Jesus brings with Him when He returns to this earth, reveals a direct link to 1 Thess.4 about the "asleep" saints which are raised that Jesus brings with Him when He comes.

Rev 19:14
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
KJV

So that is not proving a Pre-trib Rapture, because nothing is shown there about the saints still alive on earth being raptured to that army. And actually if it did state such there, it would be more proof of a Post-tribulational rapture. Yet the "caught up" saints are simply not mentioned there, which still does not prove that a pre-trib rapture happened prior to that.

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

10 hours ago, Ezra said:

Here's the point you are missing:

Rapture = Ultimate Salvation

Tribulation and Great Tribulation = Judgment

I disagree.

The "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned in Matt.24:21 is about a time of trial upon God's people on earth. It is a time of Satan's wrath upon Christ's Church, because that is who he will specifically attack at that time of the very end.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

God's Judgment upon the wicked will not come until after... that tribulation. His Judgment is shown in the OT prophets like the Isaiah 13 example I posted earlier about the "day of the Lord" event on the last day of this world.

The 7 vials serve as God's wrath upon the wicked. Yet still on the 6th Vial our Lord Jesus is still warning His Church on earth to keep their garments lest they walk in shame. It is there that He said He comes "as a thief", which is the specific timing of the "day of the Lord" which both Apostles Paul and Peter gave (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10).

In 1 Thess.5, the wrath Paul revealed that we, Christ's Church, are not appointed to, is the wrath from God upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord". Paul said when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them" (1 Thess.5:3). That also is the particular wrath from God which the OT prophets taught will occur on the "day of the Lord" (the final day of this world).

 

[Quasar93]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 2:14 PM, Salty said:

Misuse of those verses are a tradition of the Pre-trib Rapture school. You only use what benefits following their false tradition.

What Jesus really taught in Matt.24:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

In this Matt.24 version, it is speaking of the "asleep" saints that Jesus brings with Him being gathered on that day, after the tribulation.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

But in this Mark 13 version, His CHURCH ON EARTH is being "caught up" to Him on that day after that tribulation.

This is very important to note, because it perfectly aligns with what Paul taught in the 1 Thess.4 Scripture about the Church being "caught up". The word "elect" is merely a word pointing to those in Christ Jesus. It is not a privy word for Jewish believers only. So I don't know what you're trying to establish with that elect idea.

 

With the Luke 21 example, the word for "escape" is Greek ekpheugo, which can also be translated as 'to flee'. It does not point specifically to a rapture, otherwise you'd have a word like harpazo there ("caught up"). In Luke 21 Jesus told those in Jerusalem to FLEE to the mountains when they see the armies surrounding the city (Luke 21:20-21). So to insert a rapture into that would be an addition to the Scriptures that does not exist.

In the John 14:2-4 example, Jesus said He will come AGAIN, and receive them to Himself, that where He is, they may be also. This is very easy to understand, but only if we pay attention to Scripture that shows us WHERE our Lord Jesus will be WHEN HE RETURNS. He returns to Jerusalem as written in Zech.14 and Acts 1, etc. He is coming back to this earth to reign, to sit upon the throne of David which has always been an earthly throne. Zion will be on earth where Jerusalem is today. And that is where we are going with Him to. So this is actually very easy, IF one is paying attention to where our Lord Jesus will be when He returns!

The "mansions" Jesus mentioned means abodes. They are laid out in the Ezekiel temple layout of Ezekiel 40 forward. The "Zadok" there represent Christ's elect Church who reign with Him, as that name means 'the Just'.

 

FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.19:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven.  The only reference in the Gospels pertaining to a rapture, are the ones I posted that you quoted.  However, the Church is not in site, anywhere in the Gospels.  And don't try telling me the Scriptures I have posted is a miss-use of them!  Capiche?!

Supposing you explain to me how the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb, in Rev.19:7-8, and is then seen returning with Jesus, in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven in Rev.18:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5? 

Back to finish shortly.

 

Quasar93

 

Dec.14, 2016  NEW

My email link from Worthy did not permit me to quote my response to the link I prepared it for.  So I have to do some improvising to it now, instead.

 Quote by Salty:

>>>Not according to my Bible the rapture does not precede the revealing of the 'man of sin'. Apostle Paul was very specific in 2 Thess.2 that the revealing of the man of sin and the great falling away MUST occur first, prior to the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him:

2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV

The subject of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him which Paul begins with makes it plain the sequence of events.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

What "day" won't come "except" there comes a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed?? The day Paul was speaking of in the very first verse, that of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. Paul made it simple, as did the KJV translators. The man of sin must be revealed first PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather the Church.

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
KJV

Even this verse Paul shows this sequence of that Wicked man of sin doing his thing until Jesus returns.<<<

 

Quasar93 responds:

Indeed your Bible DOES teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The FOUR CONSECUTIVE POSTS in the following link completely refute your   allegorical spiritualizing of the prophetic Scriptures, and tell you why.  It refutes every post you have made denying the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, making liars out of them.

Pay paricular attention to the translation history pertaining to 2 Thess.2:3, as well as verses 7-8, that clearly placing the timing of the rapture of the Church BEFORE the man of sin is revealed!  You clearly do not have the gift of prophecy!

Where did you obtain your credentials to teach the Bible?  The following provides the proper chronological end time events, whether you accept it or not!

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/master/1/?page=1#.WFDD2-QzVpw

 

Quasar93

 

[Salty]

8 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.19:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven.  The only reference in the Gospels pertaining to a rapture, are the ones I posted that you quoted.  However, the Church is not in site, anywhere in the Gospels.  And don't try telling me the Scriptures I have posted is a miss-use of them!  Capiche?!

That is a repeat of what I already debunked in a previous post. When Apostle Paul warned about the "man of sin" coming to sit in the temple showing himself that he is God per 2 Thess.2, that is a direct link to the pseudochristos of Matthew 24:23-26. In those verses Jesus was warning about a singular false one coming that others will claim to be Christ, and that he will do great signs and wonders that if possible would deceive even His very elect, which those signs and wonders parallel the one Paul was warning about in 2 Thess.2, and that John was given to warn about in Rev.13:11 forward that is to come and work wonders and miracles in the sight of men.

I also gave those Scripture comparisons for all three of those examples in a previous post, and you failed to address any... of them.

So by that, we have hard Scripture evidence that Jesus' Olivet discourse was not only for the Church in the lands of Israel for the end, but also for the Church outside the middle east also. Pre-trib's idea that Jesus' Olivet discourse does not apply to all the Church is a flat lie. As I have said before also, the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are the seals of Revelation 6, and His Revelation was specifically given to His Church through His servant John.

 

8 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 Quote by Salty:

>>>Not according to my Bible the rapture does not precede the revealing of the 'man of sin'. Apostle Paul was very specific in 2 Thess.2 that the revealing of the man of sin and the great falling away MUST occur first, prior to the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him:

2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV

The subject of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him which Paul begins with makes it plain the sequence of events.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

What "day" won't come "except" there comes a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed?? The day Paul was speaking of in the very first verse, that of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. Paul made it simple, as did the KJV translators. The man of sin must be revealed first PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather the Church.

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
KJV

Even this verse Paul shows this sequence of that Wicked man of sin doing his thing until Jesus returns.<<<

 

Quasar93 responds:

Indeed your Bible DOES teach the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The FOUR CONSECUTIVE POSTS in the following link completely refute your   allegorical spiritualizing of the prophetic Scriptures, and tell you why.  It refutes every post you have made denying the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, making liars out of them.

I assure you there is NO allegorical spiritualizing done here by me. That is something the Pre-trib rapture theory is doing that you support, as I have proven several times here already.

One case with how you declared the "day of the Lord" happens at the tribulation time when I showed clear Scripture that the "day of the Lord" event occurs on the last day of this world to end the tribulation and will burn man's works off this earth like Apostle Peter and God showed through the OT prophets such as Isaiah 13. But you did not respond to ANY of those Scripture evidences, but only throw out false accusations now as if I'm the one doing "allegorical spiritualizing", which of course is a lie. And since allegorical spiritualizing is actually what your doctrine does, I suspect you will continue doing that with the Scriptures, adding events to the Scripture which are not written.

 

8 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Pay paricular attention to the translation history pertaining to 2 Thess.2:3, as well as verses 7-8, that clearly placing the timing of the rapture of the Church BEFORE the man of sin is revealed!  You clearly do not have the gift of prophecy!

Where did you obtain your credentials to teach the Bible?  The following provides the proper chronological end time events, whether you accept it or not!

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/master/1/?page=1#.WFDD2-QzVpw

 

Quasar93

 

I'll not address links to works of other men you try to use to express your own understanding. If you are not able to express your own understanding of the Scriptures in your own words here, then you definitely have no authority to ask what authority in God's Word I have been given.