Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

44 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

That is because many O.T. saints are resurrected Post Mill..   Rev 20:5 - And the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended, This is the First Resurrection.

Resurrected yes.. but they did not ascend because pre trib does not have another rapture after the tribulation so they don’t go up so according to pre trib all the saints don’t come back with Jesus.. same with OT saints - resurrected but never ascend so they also don’t come back with Jesus … according to scripture when he come all the saints will be coming with him.. impossible to happen in pre trib .. same with the bride- she consists of both OT saints and New Testament saints.. according to pre trib not even all the New Testament saints come back because no trib saints are included - and no Old Testament saints come back -trib saints and OT saints are even called saints according to pre trib .. Zech and ail did not say “the Lord will come with just saints from Pentecost until before the tribulation .. they both said ALL THE SAINTS WILL COME WITH HIM…not all the saints except Old Testament saints and trib saints

[transmogrified]

Pre trib could easily fix the problem but in admitting the one true bride comes down consisting of both old and New Testament saints would remove pre trib from thinking they are the bride plus it would mean that they didn’t include the OT saints in the rapture but it would not fix tribulation saints because if you add another rapture for them you violate Paul we shall be changed at the same time.. it is impossible to have trib saints resurrected at the same time with alleged “church age saints” when the tribulation saints have not even died yet,  it the way it is now the singular bride cannot come down consisting of both old and New Testament saints according to pre trib it is impossible

[transmogrified]

The only way you can have all the saints come down with Jesus and all be changed at one time as scripture states is it has to happen on the last day after the tribulation saints have all been killed and on the day Jesus come… if you do it anytime before Jesus comes someone will be left out

[DeighAnn]

Random info



The dead don't rise till the last day MAKING A PRE TRIB RISING OF THE DEAD 7 YEARS EARLIER impossible...because it throws everything off.  

BECAUSE the REST of the dead live not again until the 1000 years are finished, while Satan is bound for 1000 years when Christ returns, 

SO the dead RESURRECTING 7 years before that WOULD make all of that null and void. 

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24 KJV

SINCE PRE TRIB TAKES PLACE 7 YEARS BEFORE THE LAST DAY, THERE is no rising up of the dead so there is no catching away.   


"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." Acts 24:15 KJV

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Revelation 20:5 KJV
Pre trib would throw that all out of wack.  Unless PRE TRIB IS SEEKING TO 'CHANGE THE TIMES'.  Are they? 


Luke 20:35-36 - But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is. 

Him in a body...us in a body...




"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19 KJV





"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" 1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24 KJV




"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." Acts 26:23 KJV


"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matthew 8:22 KJV




"Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? or who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?" Psalms 94:16 KJV


 

Wednesday, September 6, 2023

3:49 PM

We implore now you brothers by the coming (Noun  Genitive Feminine Singular) of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him

IF THIS were a SINGLE event, is there any other way this would need to be put forth? 

IF this is a STAGE of a single event wouldn't the STAGE NEED TO BE RECOGNIZED to keep the integrity of the word?  


NO ONE YOU SHOULD DECEIVE
IN NOT ONE WAY

BECAUSE IF NOT SHALL HAVE COME THE APOSTASY FIRST

646. apostasia

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: apostasia

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)

Definition: defection, revolt

Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:(29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15).


AND SHALL HAVE BEEN REVEALED
601. apokaluptó

Strong's Concordance

apokaluptó: to uncover, reveal

Original Word: ἀποκαλύπτω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: apokaluptó

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-al-oop'-to)

Definition: to uncover, reveal

Usage: I uncover, bring to light, reveal.

HELPS Word-studies

601 apokalýptō (from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2572 /kalýptō, "to cover") – properly, uncover, revealing what is hidden (veiled, obstructed), especially its inner make-up; (figuratively) to make plain (manifest), particularly what is immaterial (invisible).

e. passages of persons, previously concealed, making their appearance in public: of Christ, who will return from heaven where he is now hidden (Colossians 3:3) to the earth, Luke 17:30; of Anti-christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 6, 8.



THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS,
458. anomia

Strong's Concordance

anomia: lawlessness

Original Word: ἀνομία, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: anomia

Phonetic Spelling: (an-om-ee'-ah)

Definition: lawlessness

Usage: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin.

HELPS Word-studies

458 anomía (from 1 /A "not" and 3551 /nómos, "law") – properly, without law;

lawlessness; the utter disregard for God's law (His written and living Word).

458 /anomía ("lawlessness") includes the end-impact of law breaking – i.e. its negative influence on a person's soul (status before God).

THE SON OF DESTRUCTION
684. apóleia 

Strong's Concordance

apóleia: destruction, loss

Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: apóleia

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)

Definition: destruction, loss

Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

the [one] OPPOSING
480. antikeimai

Strong's Concordance

antikeimai: to lie opposite, i.e. oppose, withstand

Original Word: ἀντίκειμαι

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: antikeimai

Phonetic Spelling: (an-tik'-i-mahee)

Definition: to lie opposite, oppose, withstand

Usage: I resist, oppose, withstand, lie opposite to.

2. to oppose, be adverse to, withstand: τίνι, Luke 13:17; Luke 21:15; Galatians 5:17; 1 Timothy 1:10. simply (ὁ) ἀντικείμενος, an adversary, (Tittmann 2:9): 1 Corinthians 16:9; Philippians 1:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 Timothy 5:14.



and EXALTING HIMSELF above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down, setting forth he himself that is God.  


THINGS PAUL WAS SAYING IN THE FIRST LETTER AND WHEN HE WAS THERE WITH THEM

And then will be revealed the lawless whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of the mouth of Him and will annul by the the appearing of the coming of Him
 

2673. katargeó ►

Strong's Concordance

katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish

Original Word: καταργέω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: katargeó

Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)

Definition: to render inoperative, abolish

Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

HELPS Word-studies

2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).

both the appearing and the coming are SINGULAR
 

4592. sémeion ►

Strong's Concordance

sémeion: a sign

Original Word: σημεῖον, ου, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: sémeion

Phonetic Spelling: (say-mi'-on)

Definition: a sign

Usage: a sign, miracle, indication, mark, token.

HELPS Word-studies

4592 sēmeíon – a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate. 4592 /sēmeíon ("sign") then emphasizes the end-purpose which exalts the one giving it. Accordingly, it is used dozens of times in the NT for what authenticates the Lord and His eternal purpose, especially by doing what mere man can not replicate of take credit for.

 

5059. teras ►

Strong's Concordance

teras: a wonder, marvel

Original Word: τέρας, ατος, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: teras

Phonetic Spelling: (ter'-as)

Definition: a wonder, marvel

Usage: a wonder, portent, marvel.

HELPS Word-studies

5059 téras – a miraculous wonder, done to elicit a reaction from onlookers; an extraordinary event with its supernatural effect left on all witnessing it, i.e. a portent from heaven to earth.

 

5579. pseudos ►

Strong's Concordance

pseudos: a falsehood, untruth, lie

Original Word: ψεῦδος, ους, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: pseudos

Phonetic Spelling: (psyoo'-dos)

Definition: a falsehood, untruth, lie

Usage: a lie, falsehood, untruth; false religion.

 

53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

God is the God of the LIVING...that is how Abraham saw it.

 

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

That is because many O.T. saints are resurrected Post Mill..   Rev 20:5 - And the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended, This is the First Resurrection.

In Christ

Totally false- Jesus said all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth.. every single person comes forth and is judged… he will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and kingdom… you can only be dead or alive.. and when does he say specifically the time of the dead is that they will be judged.. at the end of the MK? No it’s at the 7th trumpet all are judged and rewarded… the tares are cast into the fire at the same the wheat is harvested- at the 7th trumpet.. THEN - not before and not after) is the time of THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED… OT Israel is in the category of THE DEAD so they will be resurrected  and judged at that time as will the righteous of all ages.. How do we know that? It says it is at this time God will give reward to who? To his servants the prophets..And who would that be? Old Testament and New Testament prophets and then it says AND TO THE SAINTS., and who would that be ? All the saints whether old or new  And then to who else if there was any doubt.. ? AND TO THOSE THAT FEAR THY NAME BOTH SMALL AND GREAT… so this is where the righteous and wicked of all time are judged .. not one person still in their grave…. 

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The soul of every believer goes to heaven when they die.  Do you believe that the souls of believers simply sleep in that coffin, where the rotting body lies?  Now, THAT is really a MORBID THOUGHT!!

How much room does a soul occupy vs. How much room does and body with its soul occupy.  How big is your abode.  Doing your calculations on body and soul as a unit.  How much of an abode do you need just for your soul.  Thousands of souls were under the Altar in heaven. We will be in the Father's House; which will have many rooms or mansions within it.  Does one float in or out of a room, or does one walk in or out of a room as Christ did, even through a wall or door..  12 gates in the New Jerusalem.  Does one float or walk through them.

10 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

According to John 14:1-3, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  In fact, there  is NO MENTION of resurrected believers either.

Does it have to, or is it implied.  To construct a room for someone, it requires space.  And a physical Body is space.

5 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yep.  But NO resurrection body.  That's only an assumption.  Again, 1 Cor 15:23 is clear:  ALL believers receive the resurrection body WHEN HE COMES, including the 2W.

How does one get a body up to heaven once they died and it not be a resurrection.  First time for some things. 

The thing is that Jesus Christ the Son does not know the time for the Bridegroom/Rapture.  So who influenced you and others.  Wasn't Jesus Christ or His Word.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Totally false- Jesus said all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth.. every single person comes forth and is judged… he will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and kingdom… you can only be dead or alive.. and when does he say specifically the time of the dead is that they will be judged.. at the end of the MK? No it’s at the 7th trumpet all are judged and rewarded… the tares are cast into the fire at the same the wheat is harvested- at the 7th trumpet.. THEN - not before and not after) is the time of THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED… OT Israel is in the category of THE DEAD so they will be resurrected  and judged at that time as will the righteous of all ages.. How do we know that? It says it is at this time God will give reward to who? To his servants the prophets..And who would that be? Old Testament and New Testament prophets and then it says AND TO THE SAINTS., and who would that be ? All the saints whether old or new  And then to who else if there was any doubt.. ? AND TO THOSE THAT FEAR THY NAME BOTH SMALL AND GREAT… so this is where the righteous and wicked of all time are judged .. not one person still in their grave…. 

Your whole idea is False.  The 7th Trumpet brings on the 7 Bowls, followed by Armageddon,  The 7th Bowl is when the river Euphrates dries up so the army from the East (200,000,000 strong), can cross it.  Then about 700 miles to Armageddon.

A big problem I see is the GWTJ follows the Mill where all the Unjust are Judged.

One can see why I can't believe a word you are saying.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[The Light]

23 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Your whole idea is False.  The 7th Trumpet brings on the 7 Bowls, followed by Armageddon,  The 7th Bowl is when the river Euphrates dries up so the army from the East (200,000,000 strong), can cross it.  Then about 700 miles to Armageddon.

A big problem I see is the GWTJ follows the Mill where all the Unjust are Judged.

One can see why I can't believe a word you are saying.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

This is not correct. What the 7th trumpet sounds Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. Armageddon has already happened.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is the time of judgement.

[Montana Marv]

50 minutes ago, The Light said:

This is not correct. What the 7th trumpet sounds Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. Armageddon has already happened.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is the time of judgement.

I see no Bowl judgments listed until after the 7th Trumpet.  No mention of them from the 1st Seal onward.  The 7th Trumpet contains the 3rd Woe.  The 5th, 6th and 7th Trumpets are the Three Woes.  Looking at Rev 11 17,18 - you have taken your great power and begin to reign, The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.  The 7 Bowl Judgments are all Wrath.  Armageddon did not happen at the 6th Trumpet. For only 1/3rd of mankind are killed by the plagues.  Those rest of mankind who were not killed continued to worship demons and idols, they did not repent.  I see no Armageddon.  Any you say the Post-Trib Rapture happens here.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[kwikphilly]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Rev 11:12 - Come up here, and they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.  So what you have implied is that Flesh and Blood can make it into heaven without being changed.  You and your body can goes up right new then, with no change.

We are caught up by the Bridegroom.  And you falsely claim that his happens at the 2nd Coming.  You haven't read Scripture correctly, and when you say Post-Trib, I absolutely know you have no True Idea when the Harpozo is .

In Jesus's own Words about the coming of the Bridegroom; Matt 25:24 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR the SON, but only the Father.

Yet only the astute know about John 1:1---- to v.14.  In the Beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning...  v14 and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Now unless you can formulate an argument that the Word and all of the Scriptures are not One and the same, by the Son.  Your 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't hold water; for your timing is off.

I just laugh

Yes the false doctrine of a Post Trib Rapture

This is the only thing you have posted that I am in agreement with.

Then the Father has no House, and Jesus will not go there to make a place for you.  Where he is, you won't be there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Blessings Marv

I've not been following the conversation so perhaps you're  not insinuating thst Brother Free Frace is not Saved,I hope not...as thst would be in violation of our ToS.... if you're saying "IF one believes such & such" that less personal but still,hmmm?

So,if you don't mind clarifying ......

There's nothing wrong with debating different positions-getting personal,especislly regarding a Brothers Salvation are not acceptable

With love in Christ,Kwik