Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Ray12614]

This topic interests me . . . but . . . to read through 200+ pages would be tedious, so I will avoid this.

But again . . . good subject!

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Not in agreement with Paul who said we shall all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...

Totally agrees with Paul. At the second rapture the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Pre trib is the enchanted forest...you enter in by believing in multiple resurrections for different people at different times...God said we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...you say people will be changed at two different raptures at two different times...the problem is you don't admit there is a problem...the problem is you say everyone will not be changed at the same time and that it is impossible, and in the very next statement will say you believe what he said...this is an absolute contradiction with yourself and with Paul...you can't say 'yes I believe what Paul said that we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump',  and then in the very next statement say there are two raptures and it is impossible that all will be changed at the same time, and there are two groups of people who will be changed at different times, and one of these groups will be changed at the last trumpet, and what I am saying totally agrees with Paul...

   This is totally contradictory but you are basing your contradictions on the false premise that rising from the dead means ascending up to heaven...THIS IS THE ERROR...look at 1 Cor. 15:4 'And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.'

Does the scripture use the word 'rose again?' Yes of course. Does that mean resurrection from the dead? Yes of course. Does it mean he ascended into heaven on the third day? ABSOLUTELY NOT...So even though the word 'rose' is used he DID NOT RISE UP INTO HEAVEN ON THE THIRD DAY... This is how the error can be corrected...you can cling on to this scripture and say before God that the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension were not the same thing, or else the very moment Jesus was resurrected he would of had to ascend up to heaven, because according to you they are the same thing...the only problem is that they are not the same thing.

   Here are other scriptures showing the same thing: Luke 18:33 '....the third day he shall rise again...' Luke 24:7 '...and the third day rise again...' Luke 9:22 '...and be raised the third day..'

   All these scriptures are using the word 'rise' or 'raised' and yet he did not rise into heaven on the third day so you absolutely can not make the connection that to be the ONLY WAY you can be glorified is to ascend to heaven...it is not true...

   Accepting the fact that rise does not automatically mean ascend up to heaven you can now accept at face value what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the same time...as long as you hold to a meaning of 'rise' that does not fit the context you put yourself at odds with what Paul said even though you are denying it.

    What I am getting at is a word is defined by the context in which it is being used...in other words I could take the legitimate definition of 'rise' to mean being resurrected and it would work in some contexts but would not work in another context even though the exact word was being used...for example I could quote this scripture where God spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus...it says in Acts 26:16

'...But rise, and stand upon thy feet; for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose...' Did Paul ascend up to heaven because the word 'rise' was used? Of course not. But was the same word 'rise' used here as when it says Jesus rose from the dead? Yes, But that does not make the MEANING the same thing as it is used in different settings...Paul DID NOT ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN WHEN GOD TOLD HIM TO RISE...but I could point to that verse and make an entire false doctrine out of it that would put me at odds with other scriptures because I refuse to acknowledge that 'rise' in that setting did not mean he ascended up to heaven, it just meant he had fallen to the ground when God spoke to him and God told him to get up.

   It is the same with 1 Thess. 4...see that the phrase 'rise first' in this context HAS TO MEAN rise up into the air first...and why is that? Because holding to the meaning that rising first means changed first puts you at odds with what Paul said.

You CANNOT HOLD to a definition of a word that puts you at odds with the context...you could go around telling everyone God caught up Paul into heaven because it said 'rise' and stand upon your feet, but it does not fit the context for right after that you see God telling him to go to Damascus, and Damascus is not in heaven, but on the earth...CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT...realize you are openly disagreeing with what Paul said in order to fit your misunderstanding of how the phrase 'rise first' is being used in 1 Thess. 4...And do not think you are not openly in disagreement with what Paul said...Paul specifically stated we will all be changed at the same time, and you are specifically stating we shall not all be changed at the same time...if you realize 'rising first' means rise up into the air first then all can be changed at the same time...if you keep the false understanding of what rising first means then you put yourself at odds against what he said...just as I would put myself at odds with scripture if I claimed Paul ascended up to heaven on the road to Damascus because it used the word 'rise'....

'Rise' in 1 Thess. 4 does not mean they are 'changed' first...Why? Because it puts you in direct opposition to what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the same time...if one is changed before the other then of course that is not at the same time...so what does that mean? It can mean, 'I will hold to my definition of the word and falsely claim I am following Paul, or it can mean, 'if I accept that the legitimate meaning of the word 'rise' in 1 Thess. 4 to mean rise up into the air, then I can be in agreement with Paul saying we shall all be changed at the same time...or in other words both groups get glorified bodies at the exact same time, and the dead just ascend up before the living.

The distinction is not between the dead being resurrected before the living because the living are not being resurrected so the distinction is between the dead being caught up before the living are...

 

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Well, we know the catching away of the church (our gathering together unto Him) won't happen until...

1) The falling away happens (which has been in full swing for decades!)
2) The anti-christ is revealed to the world

No we don't that at all. We know the rapture will happen BEFORE the seals are opened. See Revelation 5. We also know that the seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

Additionally, we know that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Daniel 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We can also conclude that part of Israel will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

7 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

From 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 we can determine that the gathering happens before the day of Christ which is the day of the Lord. 

From Mark 13 we can determine that the gathering is a gathering from heaven and earth which is not the rapture of the Church.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven as we will be raptured before the seals are opened. It is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, Israel that is gathered from the earth. We know that the 144,000 are first fruits of this gathering.

Revelation 14 

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And here is the harvest after the first fruits have been gathered.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This of course happens BEFORE the wrath of God (which is the day of the Lord) as we saw in 2 Thes 2:1-3

That puts the gathering at the 6th seal.

[FreeGrace]

On 9/10/2023 at 1:35 AM, The Light said:

Paul said the dead and alive are changed at the same time In 1 Corinthians 15. But that is not the case in 1 Thes 4. The dead in Christ rise first which means that they are changed 1st because when the rise, they are changed from corruptible to a non corruptible body. So you are in error.

There is no contradiction between 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4.  Both refer to the SAME EVENT, which is the Second Advent of Christ.  Yes, those who have already died will receive their glorified body before those who are "alive and remain", but the event is the same one.

I'm surprised at all the nit picky stuff posters bring up about the seals, etc.  It is very clear from 1 Cor 15:23 that 'when He comes', which is the Second Advent, ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will receive their immortal glorified bodies.  

There will be only one resurrection of the saved.  Not stages, not a series, etc.  Just one.  And it will occur at the Second Advent.  1,000 years before all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their still mortal bodies to face the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF.  Rev 20.

[FreeGrace]

On 9/10/2023 at 1:39 AM, The Light said:

Dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Corinthians 15.

Dead rises first so the dead are changed first in 1 Thes 4 

Two different scriptures. Two different raptures.

Wrong.  Same EVENT, which is called the Second Advent.  In  1 Cor 15:23, Paul was noting the EVENT, which is "when He comes".  That is the singular resurrection event for ALL believers (those who belong to Him).

And, there is NO "rapture", if one thinks they will be taken to heaven.  Those still alive will meet the dead in Christ 'in the air' or 'in the clouds', but no higher.  When all have their new glorified bodies, EVERYONE continues down to earth where the King holds the Bema (1 Cor 4:5), wedding supper (Rev 19:11-21) and sets up the MK (Rev 20).

[FreeGrace]

8 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I hope all posters read 2 Thess 2:1 very carefully.  The "coming of the Lord" is the Second Advent, and "our gathering to Him" is the resurrection of all believers.

Easy peasy.  Which is what 1 Cor 15:23 says exactly.

Edited September 11, 2023 by FreeGrace

[The Light]

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There is no contradiction between 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4.  Both refer to the SAME EVENT, which is the Second Advent of Christ.

Neither scripture refers to the second advent. 1 Thes 4 when the Lord Himself comes is the rapture of the Church which happens before the seals are opened. 1 Corinthians 15 refers to the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. Jesus will remain in the Clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The second advent is when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His kingdom. That happens toward the end of the trumpets of wrath.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 Yes, those who have already died will receive their glorified body before those who are "alive and remain", but the event is the same one.

That would be impossible. When the dead rise first they already have their incorruptible body. So the change of the dead and alive cannot happen at the same time in 1 Thes 4. And we know the dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Cor 15, in the twinkling of an eye. Therefore these scriptures cannot be the same event. 

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I'm surprised at all the nit picky stuff posters bring up about the seals, etc.  It is very clear from 1 Cor 15:23 that 'when He comes', which is the Second Advent, ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will receive their immortal glorified bodies.  

 

The second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Whereas, the second advent is when Jesus returns to the earth for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth. See the 7th seal at the end of the trumpets.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

There will be only one resurrection of the saved.  Not stages, not a series, etc.  Just one. And it will occur at the Second Advent.

Here we see MANY are raised at the end of the great tribulation. This happens at the 6th seal. This alone proves what you are saying is incorrect. The second advent occurs at the end of the trumpets in the 7th seal.

Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

   1,000 years before all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their still mortal bodies to face the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF.  Rev 20.

It seems you are skipping the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the sixth seal. This is the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

[The Light]

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Wrong.  Same EVENT, which is called the Second Advent.  In  1 Cor 15:23, Paul was noting the EVENT, which is "when He comes".  That is the singular resurrection event for ALL believers (those who belong to Him).

Paul says when He comes because He is coming.

11 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And, there is NO "rapture", if one thinks they will be taken to heaven.  Those still alive will meet the dead in Christ 'in the air' or 'in the clouds', but no higher.  When all have their new glorified bodies, EVERYONE continues down to earth where the King holds the Bema (1 Cor 4:5), wedding supper (Rev 19:11-21) and sets up the MK (Rev 20).

There is a rapture when the Lord HIMSELF comes when those that are worthy can escape all these things that will come to pass. These things that are listed are the seals which is the tribulation.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is highly recommended that you watch, as we have been instructed, for the blessed hope.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Pre trib is the enchanted forest...you enter in by believing in multiple resurrections for different people at different times...God said we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...you say people will be changed at two different raptures at two different times...the problem is you don't admit there is a problem...the problem is you say everyone will not be changed at the same time and that it is impossible, and in the very next statement will say you believe what he said...this is an absolute contradiction with yourself and with Paul...you can't say 'yes I believe what Paul said that we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump',  and then in the very next statement say there are two raptures and it is impossible that all will be changed at the same time, and there are two groups of people who will be changed at different times, and one of these groups will be changed at the last trumpet, and what I am saying totally agrees with Paul...

At the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal the dead and alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. (1 Cor 15)

At the rapture of the Church, the dead are raised first. They return to heaven. When the Lord returns for the alive that remained He will bring the dead with Him.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

   This is totally contradictory but you are basing your contradictions on the false premise that rising from the dead means ascending up to heaven...THIS IS THE ERROR...

No sir. Rising from the dead means rising from the dead. At that time the body is changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

However, the end result of the rapture of the Church is the kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

 

look at 1 Cor. 15:4 'And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.'

Does the scripture use the word 'rose again?' Yes of course. Does that mean resurrection from the dead? Yes of course. Does it mean he ascended into heaven on the third day? ABSOLUTELY NOT...So even though the word 'rose' is used he DID NOT RISE UP INTO HEAVEN ON THE THIRD DAY... This is how the error can be corrected...you can cling on to this scripture and say before God that the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension were not the same thing, or else the very moment Jesus was resurrected he would of had to ascend up to heaven, because according to you they are the same thing...the only problem is that they are not the same thing.

   Here are other scriptures showing the same thing: Luke 18:33 '....the third day he shall rise again...' Luke 24:7 '...and the third day rise again...' Luke 9:22 '...and be raised the third day..'

   All these scriptures are using the word 'rise' or 'raised' and yet he did not rise into heaven on the third day so you absolutely can not make the connection that to be the ONLY WAY you can be glorified is to ascend to heaven...it is not true...

You seem to be grasping at straws here. I am not contending that rising from the dead means rising to heaven. These are things you are saying because there are no legitimate arguments.

If you want to see being caught up to heaven look here.

1 Thes 4

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

   Accepting the fact that rise does not automatically mean ascend up to heaven you can now accept at face value what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the same time...as long as you hold to a meaning of 'rise' that does not fit the context you put yourself at odds with what Paul said even though you are denying it.

    What I am getting at is a word is defined by the context in which it is being used...in other words I could take the legitimate definition of 'rise' to mean being resurrected and it would work in some contexts but would not work in another context even though the exact word was being used...for example I could quote this scripture where God spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus...it says in Acts 26:16

'...But rise, and stand upon thy feet; for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose...' Did Paul ascend up to heaven because the word 'rise' was used? Of course not. But was the same word 'rise' used here as when it says Jesus rose from the dead? Yes, But that does not make the MEANING the same thing as it is used in different settings...Paul DID NOT ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN WHEN GOD TOLD HIM TO RISE...but I could point to that verse and make an entire false doctrine out of it that would put me at odds with other scriptures because I refuse to acknowledge that 'rise' in that setting did not mean he ascended up to heaven, it just meant he had fallen to the ground when God spoke to him and God told him to get up.

I think the Word speaks for itself that in when the dead rise corruptible changes to incorruptible. In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive change in the twinkling of an eye. In 1 Thes 4, the dead rise first. These are scriptural facts that you seem to be having trouble accepting. Read what it says, accept what it says.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

   It is the same with 1 Thess. 4...see that the phrase 'rise first' in this context HAS TO MEAN rise up into the air first...and why is that? Because holding to the meaning that rising first means changed first puts you at odds with what Paul said.

In 1 Thes 4 the dead rise first, meaning rise from the dead, just as Christ rose from the dead. There is nothing complicated here. 

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

You CANNOT HOLD to a definition of a word that puts you at odds with the context...you could go around telling everyone God caught up Paul into heaven because it said 'rise' and stand upon your feet, but it does not fit the context for right after that you see God telling him to go to Damascus, and Damascus is not in heaven, but on the earth...CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT...realize you are openly disagreeing with what Paul said in order to fit your misunderstanding of how the phrase 'rise first' is being used in 1 Thess. 4...And do not think you are not openly in disagreement with what Paul said...Paul specifically stated we will all be changed at the same time, and you are specifically stating we shall not all be changed at the same time...if you realize 'rising first' means rise up into the air first then all can be changed at the same time...if you keep the false understanding of what rising first means then you put yourself at odds against what he said...just as I would put myself at odds with scripture if I claimed Paul ascended up to heaven on the road to Damascus because it used the word 'rise'....

These are things that you are attempting to twist around. I am perfectly happy to read what the Word says and accept what it says.

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

'Rise' in 1 Thess. 4 does not mean they are 'changed' first...Why? Because it puts you in direct opposition to what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the same time...if one is changed before the other then of course that is not at the same time...so what does that mean? It can mean, 'I will hold to my definition of the word and falsely claim I am following Paul, or it can mean, 'if I accept that the legitimate meaning of the word 'rise' in 1 Thess. 4 to mean rise up into the air, then I can be in agreement with Paul saying we shall all be changed at the same time...or in other words both groups get glorified bodies at the exact same time, and the dead just ascend up before the living.

The distinction is not between the dead being resurrected before the living because the living are not being resurrected so the distinction is between the dead being caught up before the living are...

 

Maybe this will clear things up for you.

1 Corinthians 15

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

When the body is raised it receives an incorruptible body.

Additionally your logic is flawed.

In 1 Corinthians 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Then you make this statement:

'Rise' in 1 Thess. 4 does not mean they are 'changed' first...Why? Because it puts you in direct opposition to what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the same time.

But I showed you above that when the dead rise, the change to an incorruptible body has already happened, showing your error.

Secondly you attempt to use 1 Corinthians 15 which says the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye to prove that the dead cannot rise first in 1 Thes 4 even though the Word says they do. That's a no no. The scripture is not wrong, you are.

Which leads to the obvious conclusion that 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 cannot be talking about the same event.

1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about when the Lord Himself comes for the Church which occurs before the seals are opened. And 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about when the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.

And neither of these is the second advent when the Lord sets His feet on the mount of Olives.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Or else I will have to sort through pages and pages and pages of out context responses that have nothing to do with addressing the question. Again.

I know right!  I get tickled when someone says "ANSWER MY QUESTIONS" as though this is an order form on High or something!

I think sometimes people forget that not everyone is going to agree with them and when it happens they should act like a mature adult and just move on!

It seems like some start crying behind their keyboard and have to run home to mommy and have her give them some milk and cookies and take a nice nap with their puppie doggie... or something.