Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[The Light]

15 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

It was your lack of understanding that caused you to... not understand the plain reading of scripture.

I run in to lots of folks that already have their mind made up and refuse to allow God's Word to get in the way of what they believe.

Our gathering together unto Him (rapture) will not happen until there is a falling away (that's been going on for decades now) and the man of sin is revealed.

Eisegesis is not your friend homie!

And I produced the scriptures that show that the gathering from heaven and earth occur at the 6th seal. And this gathering cannot occur until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

FreeGrace said: 

I'm not interested in the details of the seals, trumpets or bowls in regard to the Second Advent.  What Scripture says is that there will be ONE resurrection for all the saved.  1 Cor 15:23.  Or prove it doesn't say that and says something else.

So every mention of believer resurrection IS the Second Advent.

This is an error in logic.

No, that is clear logic.  Anything else is illogical.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is 1st Corinthians 15:23

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ is the first fruits of the dead. When the Lord Himself comes for the Church, the dead in Christ rise first. Christ will return for the alive that remain. After these events occur, which is 1 Thes 4 that harvest is over.

First sentence:  the word "firstfruits" refers to Jesus being the FIRST human to receive a glorified immortal body.  We know this from Acts 26:23.  I'll let you do the research.  But it says that Christ "is the FIRST to rise from the dead".  Real clear.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Then we have 144,000 first fruits.

This is illogical.  There is only 1 "firstfruits".  That's what "first" actually means.  Conflating verses leads to false conclusions.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

When Christ returns at the 6th seal, they that are Christs at His coming are changed, both the dead and alive in the twinkling of an eye. This is the second harvest.

The resurrection of all believers is NEVER described as a "harvest", so all mention of harvest in relation to the singular resurrection of believers is illogical.  It's made up.

Rev 6 describes the 6th seal and does NOT mention the Second Advent.  Also illogical to assume or claim otherwise.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

And we haven't even gotten to the second advent which occurs at the end of the trumpets.

Second Advent occurs to END the Tribulation.  That's how to describe it.  Forget the trumpets.  Doesn't matter.  Rev 20 SHOWS Christ at the Second Advent.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Ok. The good thing is that you understand that those at the marriage supper return with Jesus at the second advent. Here is the great multitude in heaven.

Revelation 19:6-10

What you are not grasping is that the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

Most of the "church".  Paul was clear about those who will be "alive and remain".   He was addressing NT believers, aka "the church".  So your claim is inaccurate.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

See the kings and priests of Revelation 5. Then at the 6th seal we have the gathering from heaven and earth.

Please provide the verse that says this.  If you are thinking of v.10 it seems you missed this part; "they WILL reign on the earth".  Fast forward to the MK and that's where that piece will occur.  There is NO "gathering" in Rev 5 or ANY seal.  2 Thess 2:1 specifically says we (NT believers) will be gathered "when He comes" a clear reference to the Second Advent.  None of this is arguable since there are clear verses that say this.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The Church is gathered from heaven and returns with Lord at the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds at this coming.

What do you mean "this coming"?  How many do you think there will be????

Heb 9:28 specifically says "He will appear a second time" and that is in reference to the second advent.  "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Or, explain what the verse refers to, if not the second advent.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

All return to heaven and hence we have the great multitude in heaven AFTER THE 6TH SEAL.

There will be a VERY GREAT multitude in heaven even before well before the tribulation.  Why?  Because of all the saints who have died from Adam forward.  As to "returning to heaven", what verse specifically describes Jesus making a U-turn and going back to heaven.  Hint:  there aren't any.  He continues down to earth for the Bema, wedding supper and MK.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Explain why this cannot include ALL believers from Adam forward, who have already died and are now in heaven.  I'm curious.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

No. Daniel 12:2 says that many of the righteous are raised and also unrighteous. This occurs at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as we can see that it happens at the time of the great tribulation. And the TRIBULAITON IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Illogical.  AFTER the seals we have the trumpets and then the bowl JUDGMENTS, and you claim the tribulation is over after the first set?????  Totally illogical.

The Hebrew word for "many" means "a lot".  It doesn't mean "not everyone", as you are assuming.  And by the time of the singular resurrection of the saved, you can bet there will be a whole lot of saints there.  In fact, the same is true of the singular unsaved resurrection.  In fact, WAY MORE will be at that resurrection than at the resurrection of the saved.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

No sir. Tribulation and wrath are completely different event. The tribulation happens during the 1st 6 seals.

You make many claims but support none of them with clear and unambiguous verses.

In fact, it is God's WRATH that will be poured out on the earth DURING the tribulation.  So, in fact, they are synonymous.  They go together.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The 7th seal is the trumpets of God's Wrath. The 7 bowls are also Gods wrath. The trumpets and bowls occur in the same time frame. They are different views of the same time period with different information.

All the same, as I have explained.  You are free to prove me wrong with Scripture.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

He comes for the Church before the seals are opened. There is a resurrection at that time........... the dead in Christ.

We know from 1 Thess 4 that both the dead and living will be resurrected "when He comes".  As to "the church", the VAST MAJORITY will already be in heaven, since there's been a whole lot of deaths of believers from Adam foward.  If you want to single out "the church", there's STILL been a whole lot of deaths of NT saints from Pentecost forward.  So either way, what's left of "the church" will be a tiny minority "when He comes" at the Second Advent.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

He comes for the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. There is a resurrection then, which we see in Daniel 12 and we also see the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7

Opinion.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Agreed. And yet part of Israel cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in which will happen at the pretrib rapture.

I believe 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2:1 and 1 Cor 15:23 that there will be a singular resurrection involving EVERY believer from Adam forward, as ALL believers "belong to Him".

And, there are NO verses describing Jesus taking any resurrected believers to heaven.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

1 Corinthians 15 happens at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. This is the second coming. See the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

Opinion.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The second advent happens at the end of the trumpets. Here is the judgement.

Revelation 11

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

this "judgment" is God's wrath being poured out on earth because of sin.  Has nothing to do with the second advent.  Fast forward to Rev 20 for the second advent.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Nope. Not possible. In 1 Thes 4 the dead in Christ rise first. That means they have their incorruptible bodies before the alive that remain have theirs.

How difficult is it to understand that both are in the SAME EVENT?  Yes, the dead are first in line, so to speak, but the living are right behind them.  This isn't difficult at all to understand.  And we have 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 that prove it.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 cannot be the same event.

Opinion.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

And neither of these occur at the second advent.

Opinion.  I've proven they are from Scripture.  Unlike your claims/opinions.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

v.29 nails the timing of this gathering:  immediately AFTER the tribulation.  This is describing the singular resurrection of ALL believers.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the unrighteous being cast into the wrath of God. The wrath God is the 7th seal.

The WHOLE tribulation is God's wrath being poured out on earth.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus comes for the dead in Christ, the barley harvest. Jesus returns for the alive that remain. The wheat harvest.

Nonsense.  This is merely speculation. There is NO mention of "harvest" in ANY passasge dealing with the singular resurrection of the saved.  And 1 Cor 15:23 refutes any such claim.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus comes again for the 144,000 first fruits........seen here.

lol.  There is only ONE "firstfruits".  Cannot be more.  1 Cor 15:23 refutes the claim.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

After the rapture of the Church, what happens?

There is no "rapture of the church".  Those who survive the tribulation and are alive at the second advent will be gathered to the clouds to be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" and then stay with Jesus as He continues down to the ground to end the tribulation at the battle of Armageddon, set up His MK, hold the Bema, and then the super party, the wedding supper!!  Welcome to the Millennium.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

There are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. Then what happens?

Only ONE "firstfruits".  Illogical to even think there are multiple ones.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

When He comes at the second advent, who will be looking for Him?

As Paul wrote, "we who are STILL alive, who are left", in 1 Thess 4:15.  And Paul attributed this statement to the Lord Himself!  The "we" is in the first person.  So Paul was including himself.  He didn't know when the second advent would occur.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Those of the nation of Israel that are in the place of protection.

Nope.  The Jews won't be looking for the Messiah until He appears!  When they see Him, they will KNOW that He IS the Messiah.  It will be very obvious.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Amen and Amen!  You are one of the few that realize the living do not go to heaven...

Thank you for noticing!   

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

they turn around in the clouds and continue on down with Jesus and the resurrected saints, as Jesus said 'those that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him...ON HIS WAY DOWN, BECAUSE HE IS DESCENDING, NOT ASCENDING.....Pre trib has Jesus turning around and going back to heaven...

I like to describe the "pretrib rapture" as a HUGE U-turn, to make the point.  And then ask for any verse that describes Jesus taking any resurrected saints to heaven.

And then, crickets...  There aren't any.  All just speculation.

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

the truth is the living turn around in the clouds, and the dead turn around in heaven and follow Jesus on his trip down to the earth..and combining both the living and the dead we have 'ALL THE SAINTS COMING DOWN WITH JESUS...

This would be the small U-turn.   

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Fulfilling the scripture stating 'THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.'

Jesus is always DESCENDING never ASCENDING ...as he said this is the SECOND COMING, not the SECOND GOING and as He said  'Thy kingdom COME...not 'thy kingdom GO.'

Excellent!

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Pre trib only has a way for the 'church age saints' to go up to heaven unless they try to patch up the error and make it worse by adding another rapture at the Second Coming...as Paul said 'We shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of the eye, at the last trump...not part of us changed at one time, another part of us changed at another time, and some not changed at all, and all the saints do not come back with Jesus because they never got up there because there was no rapture for them according to Pre trib...

The truth!  I need a "thumbs up" emoji here.  

[transmogrified]

23 minutes ago, The Light said:

Just to be sure you understand, when the Lord comes for His Church,

The issue is right here...you define the church as PART of the saints...this is where you get multiple resurrections. The word 'church' is not a magic word that means people who followed God from Pentecost until before the tribulation...the church is the congregation or the assembly of saints...I could say the congregation or the assembly of saints is the church...it is used interchangeably in scripture...it has been pre trib, and not scripture,  that has defined this word to mean ONLY specific people within the congregation of saints that served God from Pentecost to sometime before the tribulation...and even pre trib does not adhere to their own doctrine, in that Stephen called the congregation in the wilderness the church in the wilderness. This was before Pentecost and the word only means the congregation of Israel in the wilderness...

   But pre trib did not include the church in the wilderness to be resurrected in the pre trib rapture for the same reason they did  not include tribulation saints who die in the Lord, although they claim the pre trib rapture is only for the dead in Christ. And what is that reason? Pre trib would cease to be pre trib...if they included the OT saints and the tribulation saints in the rapture  it would OF NECESSITY place the rapture where it rightly belongs...at the second coming of the Lord..So pre trib like all other constructs that place the rapture before the second coming all end up having to disregard what Paul said...it is obvious that two raptures is not what Paul taught, it is obvious from what Paul taught all were to be changed at the same time, and it is obvious that all the saints were to be changed at the last trump.

    Jesus himself called the assembly of Israel BEFORE PENTECOST 'the church' by saying if your brother offends you were to take it before the CHURCH. This was before Pentecost...so why did not pre trib include Israel and the trib saints in the pre trib rapture / resurrection...? both Stephan and Jesus used the word church to refer to people outside of the pre trib confines, but pre trib does not go with how the scripture defines the word 'church' or it would cease to be pre trib.

     And if the 24 elders truly represent the Old and New Testament saints, they why doesn't pre trib stick with that? Because it could not possibly work, that is why...If the 24 elders truly were representing the old and new testament saints, then the tribulation saints would have been included in that representation just as much as saints who lived from Pentecost to before the tribulation...but what would that mean? It would mean the 24 elders CANNOT be representing ALL THE SAINTS Of both old and new testament BEFORE the seals are opened...Even Walvoord denies the 24 elders should be referred to as the old and new testament saints...but what are you saying? You are saying these 24 elders have their crowns on so that means not only the rapture had already took place, but it also means that ONLY A CERTAIN PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS WERE REPRESENTED AND NONE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS...so you are not representing either group as you exclude the tribulation and OT saints from the rapture. And as was already said, just resurrecting the trib saints DOES NOT MEAN THEY GOT RAPTURED, even as Walvoord has said there is no rapture after the tribulation for anyone...so even Walvoord acknowledges there is a difference between being resurrected and caught up, or he wouldn't have said they got resurrected BUT NOT RAPTURED...

     And just because you add another rapture does not fix it as it then defaults on all being changed at the last trump and also at the same time.

   

53 minutes ago, The Light said:

Actually, if you knew your stuff, you would realize that the dead are taken to heaven and then He later returns for the alive that remained. He brings the dead with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

I believe the dead rise first and are caught up to heaven...that is the great voice of many people in heaven...how did they get there? They were resurrected and ascended up to heaven just like the two prophets...they stood on their feet and then they heard a voice saying come up hither and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud.

But then you say 'he later returns FOR the alive that remained'...he does not come FOR them in the sense of TAKING THEM BACK UP TO HEAVEN...no he does not come FOR them, the living are caught up into the clouds where they MEET JESUS AND THE RESURRECTED SAINTS AS THEY ARE COMING DOWN TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES...remember there is only one time that all the saints get glorified which is at the second coming so he is NOT BRINGING ANYONE BACK TO HEAVEN...NO NO NO...he is COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND WILL BRING BOTH THE LIVING AND THE DEAD WITH HIM TO THE MT. OF OLIVES.

  This is where the error shows up with two raptures..all the saints have to get up there to heaven to come back...there is no scripture showing OT Israel, or the Trib saints going up to heaven as a separate group or groups...rather it shows God gathers his elect at the second coming and that is the elect...the elect or any portion thereof were not previously gathered...and how are they gathered? The dead are raised up to heaven at the second coming, then he gathers both groups, the dead and living to the clouds where the living meet the dead and then both groups descend down to the earth.

  

    

12 hours ago, The Light said:

So you don't believe this........

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I absolutely believe that...Israel does not get converted UNTIL the second coming...they see the nail prints in his hands...but they weep and mourn AFTER Jesus comes and they are delivered and then they see him on the earth...they were not included in the number that descended down from heaven for they were converted AFTER the resurrection had already occurred.

 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

There are two raptures as clearly shown in scripture.

There is only one rapture and Paul described it ...ALL are changed at the Last trump...not part changed at one time and part at another time...Paul did not contradict 1 Cor. 15. When Jesus was resurrected, he was RAISED in power...he had a glorified body while he walked on the earth..he could appear and disappear...but HE HAD NOT YET ASCENDED SO EQUATING BEING RESURRECTED WITH BEING RAISE IN POWER IS NOT THE SAME THING...the two prophets show this and also it is shown in Jesus..but you are acting as one MUST ascend up into the sky BEFORE or they are not glorified...which is absolutely false...1 Cor. is dealing with the resurrection ...Paul is talking about being RESURRECTED, NOT how people rise up to the sky...what is the context 'So Also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...' he did not say 'So also is the catching up into the sky'

 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The fig tree has two harvests,

And God said there is one harvest at the end of the age..both the wheat and the tares are harvested.. Jesus did not say let the wheat grow until seven years before the harvest and then let the barley be gathered...pre trib inserted that into the text, it is not in there

 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Jacob had two brides.

God has one bride and she is defined as both the old and new testament saints and she descends down from heaven at one time

 

There is no last trumpet at the feast of trumpets...the scripture shows no last trumpet at the feast of trumpets, and the Jews re-version of it does not contain a last trumpet either...the last trumpet is the last of the seven shown in scripture...the seventh one blows at the second coming when Jesus sets up his kingdom on earth...there is no other rapture before this.

 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

One coming the dead rise first and one coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

The dead rising first happens on the same day both groups are changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye...the event in 1 Thess. 4 contains both the rising of the dead and then the living being caught away to meet them when they come down...all happens at the last trump...this is the day Paul was talking when he said 'the coming of the Lord AND our gathering (rapture) unto him...he said THAT DAY shall not come unless certain things happen first..but he was saying ONE DAY in which both the gathering and the coming of the Lord would occur...not two different days, not two different raptures,  not two different brides, not two different groups of saints...

[The Light]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

First sentence:  the word "firstfruits" refers to Jesus being the FIRST human to receive a glorified immortal body.  We know this from Acts 26:23.  I'll let you do the research.  But it says that Christ "is the FIRST to rise from the dead".  Real clear.

I fully understand that Jesus is the first fruits of the dead, as He rises from the dead. Let's use some common sense. You say that there is one resurrection of the righteous. The Word says the dead in Christ rise first. Were old testament saints in Christ? Or is it the dead of the Church that is in Christ, that will be raised first?

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This is illogical.  There is only 1 "firstfruits".  That's what "first" actually means.  Conflating verses leads to false conclusions.

Christ is the first fruits of the dead. However, the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest. The Gentiles are the first harvest.

Revelation 14

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The resurrection of all believers is NEVER described as a "harvest", so all mention of harvest in relation to the singular resurrection of believers is illogical.  It's made up.

Here is the second harvest. The dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye at this harvest.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 6 describes the 6th seal and does NOT mention the Second Advent.  Also illogical to assume or claim otherwise.

I know Revelation 6 does not mention the second advent. The 6th seal is the second coming, when Christ comes to the clouds and all eyes see the coming of the Lord. This is not the second advent when Jesus returns to the clouds.

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

I produced the scriptures that show that the gathering from heaven and earth occur at the 6th seal. And this gathering cannot occur until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

That has nothing to do with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 being true and correct unless your claim is some things the Lord put in His Word are false.  Is this your claim?

Apparently the the fullness of the Gentiles coming in happens after the anti-christ is revealed as 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly tells us the gathering of the saints does not happen till after the world knows who the anti-christ is

[The Light]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

Second Advent occurs to END the Tribulation.  That's how to describe it.  Forget the trumpets.  Doesn't matter.  Rev 20 SHOWS Christ at the Second Advent.

 

You think that the second advent occurs at the end of the tribulation. You think that tribulation and wrath are the same thing.

Scripture proves this is incorrect. So you think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming AND the second advent when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven and sets His feet on the Mount of Olives. Let's see if that is so. Is there anything in these verses that leads you to think that Jesus has come leading His armies for battle and that He has set up His kingdom on earth? You are probably thinking IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. And then the wrath of God begins.

Can we prove that with scripture. Yes. We see at the opening of the 6th seal the signs of the sun, moon and stars

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We see in Matthew 24 the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24

1 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Scripture has marked the end of the tribulation at the sixth seal. The 6th seal is BEFORE wrath.

What this tells you is that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the second advent. The second advent happens at the end of wrath at the 7th trumpet of wrath. Wrath does not happen until the 7th seal is opened. And the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

I hope you consider these things.

[The Light]

22 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

That has nothing to do with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 being true and correct unless your claim is some things the Lord put in His Word are false.  Is this your claim?

Apparently the the fullness of the Gentiles coming in happens after the anti-christ is revealed as 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly tells us the gathering of the saints does not happen till after the world knows who the anti-christ is

As I said, the gathering is from heaven and earth as proven by the Word of God. It is also before the wrath of God, as proven in 2 Thessalonians 2.

You can dance around these facts and walk blind if that is your choice. Or you can gain understanding and realize that the master is at the door and door will soon open, and then shut.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

2 minutes ago, The Light said:

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

That's speaking of spiritual wickedness in high places (high level fallen angels) coming down to earth... it's not actual stars falling onto the earth as that would destroy the earth altogether

This is why it says the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

1 minute ago, The Light said:

As I said, the gathering is from heaven and earth as proven by the Word of God. It is also before the wrath of God, as proven in 2 Thessalonians 2.

You can dance around these facts and walk blind if that is your choice. Or you can gain understanding and realize that the master is at the door and door will soon open, and then shut.

I'm not dancing around anything.

I'm simply saying the rapture is not going to happen until after the ant-christ is revealed to the world... something most pre-tribbers deny as they oppose what the Lord said in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 thru His Apostle.

Of course the Lord's coming together His faith until Himself is close... and it will happen after the ant-christ is revealed to the world