Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

48 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The dead rise FIRST, but doesn't say they are RAISED in glory and in power and in incorruption.  Just imperishable.  

It absolutely positively says the dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE… Incorruptible does not mean corruptible.. The scripture that says it is 1 Cor . 15 :52— The trumpet shall sound AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE… Is there some scripture somewhere that states the dead will be raised incorruptible? Yes it is in1 Cor. 15:52… FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE…

But there isn’t a scripture anywhere that states the dead will be raised incorruptible-

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! The scripture in 1 Cor. 15:52 states the trumpet shall sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible…

If there was just a scripture that said the dead would be raised incorruptible then I would believe it..GUESS WHAT? THERE IS!! You can find it in 1 Cor. 15:52 - The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible..”

  It never says the dead will be raised incorruptible does it? YES IT DOES! 

Definition of incorruptible …immortal, nether shall they die anymore…

That means at one point they were dead doesn’t it they shall die no more… Of course they were dead! Of course theY died in Christ! Of course they were resurrected and of course this mortality  put on immortality .. When does that happen? According the wise master builder Paul who was given the gospel by revelation and laid the true foundation of which there is no other… He said that will happen when the last trumpet sounds… that doesn’t mean before the last trumpet soundS it doesn’t mean after the last trumpet sounds it means AT THE LAST TRUMPET … So now that we know the dead will be raised incorruptible when does this happen? AT THE LAST TRUMP
 

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And then all of them will continue down from the clouds to earth where Jesus ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon, locks Satan for 1,000 years, holds the Bema, and then the victorious wedding supper to kick off the MK!!

first let's get this order of events correct first, well let me show what I believe by in the words of God
 

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.



We are in this body we are absent from the Lord
We put off this body we put on the one eternal in the heavens
WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ

...as Jesus died and rose again, EVEN SO US and we are being brought back with Him

And how do we know we rise in glory, because THAT is how the resurrection of the dead goes
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

how do we know it is before that last day?  Because we see souls under the altar, we see brethren in heaven, we see the transformation, we see the graves opened, we read HE led the captives when HE ascended, together with his dead body they rose.  

All the saved go to THE KINGDOM OF GOD to be judged while the unsaved go to hell to await being raised up and when the dead are raised up when Christ returns we sit on thrones to judge 'ANGELS' meaning the dead had to rise in a spiritual body.  But the dead who rise from the corruption don't receive their immortality, just are raised up in their spiritual body.  The one the rich man was seen and heard in.  

And WHEN ARE THE DEAD judged?  at the end of the Lords Day at the GWTJ.  

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 This verse is about the Second Advent, when Jesus comes down from heaven with ALL the saints who are already in heaven, and those still alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM in the air and all will receive their glorified immortal bodies.

agreed, all those who died and followed Him to be where He is, so the alive and remaining can be joined up with them for the Lords Day to begin

again, how does the resurrection of the dead go?  RAISED IN GLORY, in an incorruptible body, in power and incorruption

but first the dead captives of hell rise up in an imperishable body, none of them able to receive their immortality until the GWTJ. 
 

This body dissolves and we continue on living in the body made without hands in the heaven.  
 

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

2In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

 

[DeighAnn]

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 But for those who aren't so well versed, I recommend that you include the WHOLE address of what you quote, so they can look up the context of the verse you quote.

While others recommend I give none at all.  Maybe it is best if we allow the Holy Spirit to lead each of us as He would.  Appeals such as this are from the flesh and for the flesh...many gifts with many measures of faith with many callings...

 

 

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I know that you have a real problem dealing with how the Bible uses the word "dead".  But here is the FACT, you know, "IT IS WRITTEN", your fav phrase.

Taking it up with me doesn't seem to be working so maybe you should take it up with the Holy Spirit and quit judging another mans servant.  Because 'It is written' are the first words of the ministry of Christ.  

There is no need to read my posts if they cause you to judge everything I do.  You might want to poking God in the eye.  

 

 

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In John 5:24 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.  You really want to argue with Jesus.  I don't recommend it.

and a few verses a SPIRIT OF TRUTH does not convey.  I am willing to bet there are more IFS than there are 'possess'es,  as you believe it be.   I possess 10 dollars.  Doesn't mean I will always possess it.  It was freely given to me, doesn't mean if I lose it or spend it the one who gave it to me has to always make sure I have 10 dollars from that point on.  

"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth." Ezekiel 33:12 KJV




God ISN'T GOING TO JUDGE how well HE WORKED IN YOU, you have to LABOR, you have to abide, you have to obey...If YOU break the contract then the other party is no longer obligated to keep their part.  

I understand it is the word of God, but common sense should prevail over the words that are written.  This is what happens when we TEAR DOWN rather than build upon the foundations laid.  That is why THE WORDS OF GOD lead to faith, not as if I had already attained...


 

 

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

To "gain immortality" is a direct reference to the body.  It is the body that gains immortality.  The soul already IS immortal.  So unbelievers will exist in the LOF for ever and ever in torment.

That is your belief, that is YOUR judgment.   ETERNAL TORMENT.   

Sure glad I won't be facing THAT.

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:2 KJV

The circle begins again but this time, I am just going to exit the ride here.  

[FreeGrace]

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

first let's get this order of events correct first, well let me show what I believe by in the words of God

I've already shown you the correct order of events.  From Scripture.  

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

And what, pray tell, do any of these verses have to do with your "correct order"?

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

We are in this body we are absent from the Lord
We put off this body we put on the one eternal in the heavens

No, we don't.  Because "IT ISN'T WRITTEN".

To "put off this body" is a euphemism for physical death.  We don't do it, unless one commits suicide.  And we don't put on another "eternal one" in the heavens.

But since you think there are verses that say this, please share.

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

WE appear before the judgment seat of Christ

Yep.

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

And how do we know we rise in glory, because THAT is how the resurrection of the dead goes
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Do you understand the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body?

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

But the dead who rise from the corruption don't receive their immortality, just are raised up in their spiritual body.

The "spiritual body" IS IS IS immortal.  I see that you do NOT understand 1 Cor 15.

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 And WHEN ARE THE DEAD judged?  at the end of the Lords Day at the GWTJ.

Only the unsaved will face the GWTJ.  Believers will be at the Bema, which is when Jesus returns to earth.  These 2 judgments are 1,000 years apart.  Rev 20:5 SAYS so.

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

This body dissolves and we continue on living in the body made without hands in the heaven.

I have no idea what you are referring to here.  Where is "IT WRITTEN"?

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 

Well, you're STILL doing it.  Quoting verses without an address.  Just numbering the verses is not helpful at all.  Please cite the book and chapter too.

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

2In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Since you quote verses without any comment, I will just ignore them, since I don't have any idea what you think they mean and I can't read minds.

12 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

[FreeGrace]

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  FreeGrace said: 

 But for those who aren't so well versed, I recommend that you include the WHOLE address of what you quote, so they can look up the context of the verse you quote.

While others recommend I give none at all.

Because you don't like recommendations from others?  Well, the one above is one that should be heeded.  It's called being polite.

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  Maybe it is best if we allow the Holy Spirit to lead each of us as He would.  Appeals such as this are from the flesh and for the flesh...many gifts with many measures of faith with many callings...

So Paul's recommendations in his epistles were "of the flesh", huh.  Again, when you post verses, please include book and chapter numbers.

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Taking it up with me doesn't seem to be working so maybe you should take it up with the Holy Spirit and quit judging another mans servant.  Because 'It is written' are the first words of the ministry of Christ.

Where have I judged you?  Please be specific since I don't believe you.

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

There is no need to read my posts if they cause you to judge everything I do.  You might want to poking God in the eye.

If one engages in a public forum, and wishes to comment on a post, one MUST be able to comprehend the post before responding.  You may call that "judging", but doesn't matter.   It isn't.  It's understanding BEFORE replying. 

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  and a few verses a SPIRIT OF TRUTH does not convey.

What does this non sentence mean?

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  I am willing to bet there are more IFS than there are 'possess'es,  as you believe it be.   I possess 10 dollars.  Doesn't mean I will always possess it.  It was freely given to me, doesn't mean if I lose it or spend it the one who gave it to me has to always make sure I have 10 dollars from that point on.

Just what is your point here?  Are you cheapening salvation by comparing it to 10 measly bucks in your possession??  Why would you do that?

btw, since it seems you really don't know; salvation cannot be compared or equated with any object.  Because it isn't an object.  It is a NEW LIFE from God.  How do you lose eternal life?  Can you explain that?  Of course you can't.  Eternal life means life that is unending.  So if eternal life can die, then it WASN'T eternal in the first place.

Are you following?

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  "Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth." Ezekiel 33:12 KJV

Ignore.  You need to include a comment about why this is relevant before I can reply.

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

God ISN'T GOING TO JUDGE how well HE WORKED IN YOU, you have to LABOR, you have to abide, you have to obey...If YOU break the contract then the other party is no longer obligated to keep their part.

If you think all this is related to getting saved, or receiving eternal life, then you have totally misunderstood the gospel.  How sad.  Works have NO PART in the gospel.

Haven't you ever read Romans 3 and 4?  We are justified (saved) by faith.  NOT BY WORKS.

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I understand it is the word of God, but common sense should prevail over the words that are written.

The BEST "common sense" of ANY human being is laughable compared to "what is written".

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

That is your belief, that is YOUR judgment.   ETERNAL TORMENT.

I've made no judgment at all.  Rather, I have understood God's Word in Rev 20:10, which shows 2 human beings STILL in the LOF after 1,000 years and then joined by Satan, and THEY THEY THEY will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever.

btw, some will claim that the phrase "for ever and ever" can refer to things that don't actually last forever.  Well, gots news for you.  Here are all the uses of "for ever and ever" in Revelation that refer to the Lord Jesus Christ about reigning.

Rev 1:5, 18, 4;9, 10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 22:5.   10x

Rev 14:11 and 19:3 speak of "the smoke of their torment rising for ever and ever".

Rev 20:10 speaks of the beast, FP, and Satan being tormented DAY AND NIGHT for ever and ever.

So John used the phrase FAR MORE for literal never ending time.  Only 3 times in reference to torment.  So why should I assume that God's torment won't last literally forever?

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

   "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:2 KJV

The circle begins again but this time, I am just going to exit the ride here.  

That's fine.  I have observed many who bow out when they realize that they can't defend their position.  So you've made a good choice.

[transmogrified]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

After that I don't see anything productive coming at this point.  Thank you for the debate, it brought back some things forgotten and cleared up an error I made.  So again, thank you

I would love to discuss the scriptures with you however you put yourself in direct contradiction against what Paul said..He is the wise builder and there is no other foundation but that which he laid.. Your”wisdom” contradicts Paul.. you say everyone gets changed individually when they die which is in direct contradiction to All being changed at the last trump.. you have to re label the dead in Christ as being sinners to avoid the truth that the dead in Christ are still dead until the resurrection.. You make the last day to mean the last day of the Old Testament which again defies any logic whatsoever to justify your position.. saying all saints get glorified bodies when they die cannot and does not connect with the last day meaning the last day of the Old Testament .. If the last day of the Old Testament already happened how does that equate to every person getting glorified when they die which now would be some 2000 years after the alleged last day has already occurred?

    Making the dead in Christ to be sinners, changing the last day to be the last day of the Old Testament, making the phrase “ he that believes shall never die” to mean they receive glorified bodies at death, leads you into direct contradiction with Paul saying we shall be changed at the last day… PAUL IS NOT USING YOUR DEFINITIONS, the last day does not mean the last day of the Old Testament.. The dead in Christ are not sinners.. the phrase “ he that believes on me shall never die” does not mean there is no resurrection… and it does NOT MEAN each person is  resurrected at death…Paul said he would get his crown of life at “That day” and that everyone else would get their crown of life at that same time… THAT DAY does not mean the day you die, as it would clearly contradict Paul saying all would be changed AT THE SAME TIME… everyone does not die at the same moment, nor does everybody die at the last trump.. THE REASON WHAT PAUL SAYS IS SO DIFFERENT FROM  WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS BECAUSE YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH PAUL AND ITS FOR SURE WHAT HE SAID IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU SAY..

 

[FreeGrace]

11 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

I would love to discuss the scriptures with you however you put yourself in direct contradiction against what Paul said..He is the wise builder and there is no other foundation but that which he laid.. Your”wisdom” contradicts Paul.. you say everyone gets changed individually when they die which is in direct contradiction to All being changed at the last trump.. you have to re label the dead in Christ as being sinners to avoid the truth that the dead in Christ are still dead until the resurrection.. You make the last day to mean the last day of the Old Testament which again defies any logic whatsoever to justify your position.. saying all saints get glorified bodies when they die cannot and does not connect with the last day meaning the last day of the Old Testament .. If the last day of the Old Testament already happened how does that equate to every person getting glorified when they die which now would be some 2000 years after the alleged last day has already occurred?

    Making the dead in Christ to be sinners, changing the last day to be the last day of the Old Testament, making the phrase “ he that believes shall never die” to mean they receive glorified bodies at death, leads you into direct contradiction with Paul saying we shall be changed at the last day… PAUL IS NOT USING YOUR DEFINITIONS, the last day does not mean the last day of the Old Testament.. The dead in Christ are not sinners.. the phrase “ he that believes on me shall never die” does not mean there is no resurrection… and it does NOT MEAN each person is  resurrected at death…Paul said he would get his crown of life at “That day” and that everyone else would get their crown of life at that same time… THAT DAY does not mean the day you die, as it would clearly contradict Paul saying all would be changed AT THE SAME TIME… everyone does not die at the same moment, nor does everybody die at the last trump.. THE REASON WHAT PAUL SAYS IS SO DIFFERENT FROM  WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS BECAUSE YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH PAUL AND ITS FOR SURE WHAT HE SAID IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU SAY..

Amen!  It's always good to use the Berean verification method (Acts 17:11) when hearing what others SAY the Bible says.  If they don't match, we know not to believe what they SAY.

[Diaste]

Some thoughts this morning...

A few points about the 'Rapture':

There is a rapture. It's called the gathering in scripture, or the 1st resurrection. The word 'rapture' appears no where in scripture. I think it's even worse than a misnomer. It's an event conjured from fantasy and fear, a deception of the enemy.

That being said the 'rapture' will happen, but only after the great tribulation. No where do we see, in all of scripture, a vast throng numbering some 2 billion depicted in heaven and described as having been translated pre- anything. 

What we do see is a group resurrected and translated, having come out from within great tribulation, having overcome the trials, having overcome the beast, not worshipping the beast nor the image, nor receiving the mark and/or beheaded, and firmly holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ and of God the Father.

We also do not see the supposed two billion pretrib raptured 'Christians' translated and installed as judges for 1000 years. We only see those who hold the testimony of Jesus Christ and the word of God, and who did not bend the knee to the beast, and lost their lives as defenders of the faith, as the ones resurrected, along with the translated living of the same attributes, at the 2nd coming and living and reigning with Jesus for 1000 years.

This means that all the dead in Christ from the Ascension to the end of the 1000 years that did not come out of great tribulation, wait until the 2nd resurrection and the great white throne judgement after the millennium for their resurrection and appearance before the throne.

Many think the appearance before the GWT is a summary judgement of rebellion and sin and death and a sentence of eternal hellfire in a burning lake. That is not the case. Paul says: "10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad."

Paul is saying it is necessary to reveal in front of the tribunal both the good and the bad. Both are critical testimony, both for and against, good and bad, that all may see and understand; testifying to the mercy and justice of the Most High, in the power and authority of Jesus. 

I'm convinced many think appearing before the throne is an automatic eternal death sentence. It's not. It's a rendering of just judgement based on His mercies and the facts of truth. I guess if one is afraid of that it's time for personal reflection and a fresh, critical assessment of behaviors and attitudes.

Blessings

 

 

[Montana Marv]

Bema seat is for Believers; rewards given.  GWT judgment is for Unbelievers, their names are not written in the Lambs book of Life.

No place in Scripture is the time of the Harpozo (Rapture) revealed.  Only God the Father knows of its timing, not the Son who is the Word.  It is only God the Father who draws individuals to his Son, thus He is the only one who knows when the completion of the Church will be.  It is only God the Father who gives gifts to men.  It is only God the Father who gives out the H.S. as a seal.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is a rapture. It's called the gathering in scripture, or the 1st resurrection. The word 'rapture' appears no where in scripture. I think it's even worse than a misnomer.

Rapture is a derivative of the Latin verb rapere: