Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures?    

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness.

Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life.

 

What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11,  . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . ,

 

Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne.

If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there.

 

God bless you in Jesus.

 

Hi Larry,

 

You make a very good point. Why does John not describe a multitude of believers surrounding the throne in 4:2? After all, he is quite prepared to do so in 7:9. The answer is simple - the rapture has not happened at this juncture! The absence of a multitude speaks against it.

 

It is doubtful we can equate the 24 elders with Smyrna and Philadelphia simply because all three mention crowns. The first rider also has a crown (6:2). So too the locusts (9:7)! Surely they do not symbolise believers too. These only show that crowns is a common symbol.

 

Indeed, if we equate characters simply on the basis of the same symbol, we would have to say that the rider on the white horse in 6:2 is Jesus because Jesus also rides on a white horse in 19:11. That would create more problems than it solves.

 

Hey, that's fair enough question. Now I would ask who the twenty-four elders and four living ones are since the Church is being revealed on the Lord's Day, and they came to be with Jesus at that time; and they did need to be caught up to be there. I see no other indicators of a rapture after that point until the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

 

There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Sister]

 

There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 

 

Thanks.

 

Hi Larry

 

There are only 144,000 sealed.  No more.  The effects of the tribulation cannot harm them because they followed the Lamb whereever he goes.  (big clue)

The rest of the saints have to go through tribulation because of all those reasons listed to the seven churches.

Not all Christians are Church attendees.  These warnings apply to them also. 

 

It's so simple, Christ is warning us all to come out of Babylon, ...to not be yoked with her.  We have to understand what that means exactly.

It's not just about worshiping idols, but anything else that comes before God in our hearts whatever it may be, that's what we worship.  We don't have to bow down to worship something, but love it more than we love God.

 

Putting God second place is not accepted, therefore tribulation to the saints who do not keep the first commandment in the old and new testament.

 

Christ was not just speaking to just the Catholics, but the whole Christian world.

 

God bless

[Larry 2]

 

 

There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 

 

Thanks.

 

Hi Larry

 

There are only 144,000 sealed.  No more.  The effects of the tribulation cannot harm them because they followed the Lamb whereever he goes.  (big clue)

The rest of the saints have to go through tribulation because of all those reasons listed to the seven churches.

Not all Christians are Church attendees.  These warnings apply to them also. 

 

It's so simple, Christ is warning us all to come out of Babylon, ...to not be yoked with her.  We have to understand what that means exactly.

It's not just about worshiping idols, but anything else that comes before God in our hearts whatever it may be, that's what we worship.  We don't have to bow down to worship something, but love it more than we love God.

 

Putting God second place is not accepted, therefore tribulation to the saints who do not keep the first commandment in the old and new testament.

 

Christ was not just speaking to just the Catholics, but the whole Christian world.

 

God bless

 

Dear Sister, we old Gentiles here are also sealed unto God at this present time

2Co 1:21  Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 

2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 

 

By drawing attention to Thyatira, I just used one example of judgment of the Church to show a place where tribulation is reflected against five of the seven church assemblies addressed. I too came out of the Catholic Church due to dogma, not because I believed them all to not be Christians.

 

To the best of my thinking, I find only two of the seven churches meeting the standards Jesus wants in us, and of course I am again referring to Philadelphia (patiently keeping the word), and Smyrna (being faithful unto death.) There is consequence to the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and as Paul told us of the things he did in Php 3:8,  . . "that I may win Christ," In Php 3:9  Paul wanted to be found in Him, not having his own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Paul wanted to be one that won Jesus as his bridegroom.  

 

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 

[Sister]

Dear Brother Larry

 

Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord.  This is a promise and a hope in something true.  They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame.  They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it.

....But all of the past generations are dead.  None of them are living in the last generation.

The last generation has it the hardest.  The Serpent has been hard at work to distort and destroy the truth.  The master of manipulation has done it so subtly over the last 2015 years, that by the time we near the end of this world's system as we know it, many have that pathway to the truth blocked.  There are numerous doctrines within the Christian community, and we can see that there are divisions.  Take your pick, choose which one takes your liking.  Well it shouldn't be this way.  There should only be one truth, and all Christians should be part of that one doctrine, and one truth.  We should all be singing the same song, but it isn't so.  The enemy has chosen to block all the busy traffic, therefore creating chaos, a traffic jam.  Too many options and too many obstacles to get through.  The ones that have chosen to defend their doctrines can't get out, and the ones looking for one to rely on can't decide which way to go.....and to add to that they have all these different bible translations to choose from and they are all trusting in Christ to guide, and if he is guiding all then why so many divisions?.

 

Well he truth can never be destroyed because it is preserved.  We can have access, and that is through the scriptures.  We go straight to the Father through Christ and see for ourselves that the final authority is his Word.

 

The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing.  They are sealed just before the tribulation.  They are following the Lamb where ever he goes, and they are all singing the same song that no man knows but them and the 24 elders and 4 beasts know.  They are sticking to that same doctrine and same truth.  They do not belong to any particular church, or any particular group, but are pockets of believers from everywhere around the world who learn't of their teachers, the apostles, who learn't of Christ.

 

This is why they are sealed.  They didn't get caught up in the traffic but took the narrow road.  They found the truth and overcame in the hardest of times.  Therefore they will not be thrown into that same tribulation that will come upon the whole world, because they will be put into the ark.  They will not be taken up just yet, but their lives will be preserved, and they will not be touched by the plagues or be killed.  It will be like the passover.  The angels will pass over them, and no harm will come to them.

They will not be purified with fire (death) because they were purified by Christ when they chose to listen to him in their lifetime, and I would say (in my opinion) that they went through a major tribulation at some part of their life, their own personal test and did not forsake the Lord, but chose him instead.

 

This is why they are so different, and they will be the first fruits of the resurrection.  Not because they are Jews, but because they follow the Lamb. They are Christians.

They will be picked up just before the rest.  That is why John saw only them with Christ in Mt Zion.  The rest have not come yet, but coming soon.

The majority of the others will be raised from the dead, but these will be quickened when Christ comes for them.

 

Only 144,000 sealed and no more.  That's the final number.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

 

[Larry 2]

Dear Brother Larry

 

Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord.  This is a promise and a hope in something true.  They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame.  They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it.

....But all of the past generations are dead.  None of them are living in the last generation.

The last generation has it the hardest.  The Serpent has been hard at work to distort and destroy the truth.  The master of manipulation has done it so subtly over the last 2015 years, that by the time we near the end of this world's system as we know it, many have that pathway to the truth blocked.  There are numerous doctrines within the Christian community, and we can see that there are divisions.  Take your pick, choose which one takes your liking.  Well it shouldn't be this way.  There should only be one truth, and all Christians should be part of that one doctrine, and one truth.  We should all be singing the same song, but it isn't so.  The enemy has chosen to block all the busy traffic, therefore creating chaos, a traffic jam.  Too many options and too many obstacles to get through.  The ones that have chosen to defend their doctrines can't get out, and the ones looking for one to rely on can't decide which way to go.....and to add to that they have all these different bible translations to choose from and they are all trusting in Christ to guide, and if he is guiding all then why so many divisions?.

 

Well he truth can never be destroyed because it is preserved.  We can have access, and that is through the scriptures.  We go straight to the Father through Christ and see for ourselves that the final authority is his Word.

 

The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing.  They are sealed just before the tribulation.  They are following the Lamb where ever he goes, and they are all singing the same song that no man knows but them and the 24 elders and 4 beasts know.  They are sticking to that same doctrine and same truth.  They do not belong to any particular church, or any particular group, but are pockets of believers from everywhere around the world who learn't of their teachers, the apostles, who learn't of Christ.

 

This is why they are sealed.  They didn't get caught up in the traffic but took the narrow road.  They found the truth and overcame in the hardest of times.  Therefore they will not be thrown into that same tribulation that will come upon the whole world, because they will be put into the ark.  They will not be taken up just yet, but their lives will be preserved, and they will not be touched by the plagues or be killed.  It will be like the passover.  The angels will pass over them, and no harm will come to them.

They will not be purified with fire (death) because they were purified by Christ when they chose to listen to him in their lifetime, and I would say (in my opinion) that they went through a major tribulation at some part of their life, their own personal test and did not forsake the Lord, but chose him instead.

 

This is why they are so different, and they will be the first fruits of the resurrection.  Not because they are Jews, but because they follow the Lamb. They are Christians.

They will be picked up just before the rest.  That is why John saw only them with Christ in Mt Zion.  The rest have not come yet, but coming soon.

The majority of the others will be raised from the dead, but these will be quickened when Christ comes for them.

 

Only 144,000 sealed and no more.  That's the final number.

 

God bless.

 

Sister - Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord.  This is a promise and a hope in something true.  They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame.  They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it.

 

Larry 2 - The very same thing will be true of those firstfruits of all the nation of Israel sealed during the first half of the tribulation.

 

 

Sister - if He is guiding all then why so many divisions?

 

Larry 2 - I suggest we have no more division than the disciples. E.g., Gal 2:11  (Paul and Peter at Antioch)

Rom 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

What of Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath.

1 Cor 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face . .

 

Sister - The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing.  They are sealed just before the tribulation.  

 

Larry 2 - I disagree with this due to the fact that Revelation Chapter Seven occurs during the first 3 1/2  years of tribulation said to be the “Temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10)

That which is called the Great Tribulation is the second half of the week of tribulation. Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  

Rev 12:5  The man child (144,000) are delivered from that time and caught up to God.

 

Sister - They (144,000) are following the Lamb where ever he goes, and they are all singing the same song that no man knows but them and the 24 elders and 4 beasts know.

 

Larry 2 - I’m not sure what gives you the idea that the 24 elders and 4 beasts know the song the 144,000 sing.

Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

Blessings dear Sister in Jesus’ name. 

[Sister]

Greetings Larry

 

Sister - Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord.  This is a promise and a hope in something true.  They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame.  They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it.

 

Larry 2 - The very same thing will be true of those firstfruits of all the nation of Israel sealed during the first half of the tribulation.

 

Greetings Larry2

 

Does not the scriptures say;

 

Galatians 3:28   There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11   Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

If we are all one in Christ, then why the separation amongst gentiles and the tribes of Israel concerning the coming?

That would make the above scriptures not true, because there is clearly a division if the 144,000 are all Israel.

 

The 144,000 have their part before the millennium.  They follow the Lamb.  They follow his teachings.

Can you see what I am saying?  I would like someone to address this and show me clearly where my line of thinking is wrong in putting these scriptures together.

 

On a different note;

We know that God has a plan for Israel during the millennium, and then there will be a separation between Israel and the gentiles, but all these who will be called back to live in the kingdom on earth have not taken part in the 1st Resurrection of the saints, so it's a different time and different circumstance.  They will be learning Christ because they did not know him.  They will be restored.

The 144,000 know him because they follow him.

[Larry 2]

Greetings Larry

 

Sister - Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord.  This is a promise and a hope in something true.  They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame.  They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it.

 

Larry 2 - The very same thing will be true of those firstfruits of all the nation of Israel sealed during the first half of the tribulation.

 

Greetings Larry2

 

Does not the scriptures say;

 

Galatians 3:28   There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11   Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

If we are all one in Christ, then why the separation amongst gentiles and the tribes of Israel concerning the coming?

That would make the above scriptures not true, because there is clearly a division if the 144,000 are all Israel.

 

The 144,000 have their part before the millennium.  They follow the Lamb.  They follow his teachings.

Can you see what I am saying?  I would like someone to address this and show me clearly where my line of thinking is wrong in putting these scriptures together.

 

On a different note;

We know that God has a plan for Israel during the millennium, and then there will be a separation between Israel and the gentiles, but all these who will be called back to live in the kingdom on earth have not taken part in the 1st Resurrection of the saints, so it's a different time and different circumstance.  They will be learning Christ because they did not know him.  They will be restored.

The 144,000 know him because they follow him.

 

Quote

Sister - Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord.  This is a promise and a hope in something true.  They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame.  They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it.

Larry 2 - The very same thing will be true of those firstfruits of all the nation of Israel sealed during the first half of the tribulation.

 

Sister - Does not the scriptures say;

Galatians 3:28   There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11   Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

If we are all one in Christ, then why the separation amongst gentiles and the tribes of Israel concerning the coming?

That would make the above scriptures not true, because there is clearly a division if the 144,000 are all Israel.

 

Larry 2 - Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Dear Sister, I can do no more than give my opinion here, and in Christ we do become one. The same will be with the 144,000 as the firstfruits of all the tribes of Israel to God when God begins dealing once again with nations.

At this time the times of the Gentiles has ceased, the fullness of the Gentiles which Simion declared in Act 15:14  . . how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name is complete.  

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem - Rev 12:22) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. My understanding here is that Jacob is representing all Israel as its progenitor.  

That leaves us with the 144,000 being the firstfuits of the all Israel being saved.

 

Sister - The 144,000 have their part before the millennium.  They follow the Lamb.  They follow his teachings.

Can you see what I am saying?  I would like someone to address this and show me clearly where my line of thinking is wrong in putting these scriptures together.

 

Larry 2 - These are indeed caught up prior to the millennium as the man child of Rev 12:5, and in fact at the time the antichrist is found as the abomination of desolation, that son of perdition sitting in the Holy place showing himself as God.

2 Thes 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

Larry 2 - Does this help at all? It’s not easy seeing some of these time changes, or dispensations as many refer to them.

 

Sister - On a different note;

We know that God has a plan for Israel during the millennium, and then there will be a separation between Israel and the gentiles, but all these who will be called back to live in the kingdom on earth have not taken part in the 1st Resurrection of the saints, so it's a different time and different circumstance.  They will be learning Christ because they did not know him.  They will be restored.

The 144,000 know him because they follow him.

 

Larry 2 - What you describe is the dispensational view of transition from the Church age to the Kingdom Age. Israel will be the head of the nations, and we even read of what God is doing in those nations during the millennium.

Isa 19:23  In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

Isa 19:24  In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

Isa 19:25  Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

 

My thoughts.    

[ghtan]

 

 

 

 

Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures?    

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness.

Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life.

 

What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11,  . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . ,

 

Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne.

If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there.

 

God bless you in Jesus.

 

Hi Larry,

 

You make a very good point. Why does John not describe a multitude of believers surrounding the throne in 4:2? After all, he is quite prepared to do so in 7:9. The answer is simple - the rapture has not happened at this juncture! The absence of a multitude speaks against it.

 

It is doubtful we can equate the 24 elders with Smyrna and Philadelphia simply because all three mention crowns. The first rider also has a crown (6:2). So too the locusts (9:7)! Surely they do not symbolise believers too. These only show that crowns is a common symbol.

 

Indeed, if we equate characters simply on the basis of the same symbol, we would have to say that the rider on the white horse in 6:2 is Jesus because Jesus also rides on a white horse in 19:11. That would create more problems than it solves.

 

Hey, that's fair enough question. Now I would ask who the twenty-four elders and four living ones are since the Church is being revealed on the Lord's Day, and they came to be with Jesus at that time; and they did need to be caught up to be there. I see no other indicators of a rapture after that point until the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

 

There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 

 

Thanks.

 

The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet.  

 

Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14).

 

My preference is for the latter, but note that both are mid-trib positions.

 

Blessings.

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures?    

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness.

Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life.

 

What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11,  . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . ,

 

Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne.

If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there.

 

God bless you in Jesus.

 

Hi Larry,

 

You make a very good point. Why does John not describe a multitude of believers surrounding the throne in 4:2? After all, he is quite prepared to do so in 7:9. The answer is simple - the rapture has not happened at this juncture! The absence of a multitude speaks against it.

 

It is doubtful we can equate the 24 elders with Smyrna and Philadelphia simply because all three mention crowns. The first rider also has a crown (6:2). So too the locusts (9:7)! Surely they do not symbolise believers too. These only show that crowns is a common symbol.

 

Indeed, if we equate characters simply on the basis of the same symbol, we would have to say that the rider on the white horse in 6:2 is Jesus because Jesus also rides on a white horse in 19:11. That would create more problems than it solves.

 

Hey, that's fair enough question. Now I would ask who the twenty-four elders and four living ones are since the Church is being revealed on the Lord's Day, and they came to be with Jesus at that time; and they did need to be caught up to be there. I see no other indicators of a rapture after that point until the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

 

There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

gtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet.  

 

Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14).

 

My preference is for the latter, but note that both are mid-trib positions.

 

Blessings.

 

 

ghtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet.  

 

Larry 2 - Since Revelation is revealing Jesus, He is the head of the church, and we read in Act 15:14,  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. What do you think a people for His name will be? Will this be the bride of Christ?

Paul said it like this in 2 Cor 11:2.  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. Is there something in these scriptures indicating there is more than just getting to heaven?

You mention the possibility of Moses being in spirit form ascending to be the twenty-four elders.

Allow me to run this by you. Jesus said of John the Baptist, Luk 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he, but John say below that his reward will being the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

 

Joh 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

I would then ask just who of the Church qualifies to be the bride of our Savior if not those of Smyrna that remained faithful unto death? Rev 2:10.

 

One other thing Paul brings out in 2 Tim 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: . .

Could the following scripture allude to that same thought concerning the 24 elders?

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.

 

ghtan - Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14).

 

Larry 2 - Those of Rev 7:9 and Rev 12:5 surely seem to be mid-trib translations.

[ghtan]

 

ghtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet.  

 

Larry 2 - Since Revelation is revealing Jesus, He is the head of the church, and we read in Act 15:14,  Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. What do you think a people for His name will be? Will this be the bride of Christ?

Paul said it like this in 2 Cor 11:2.  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. Is there something in these scriptures indicating there is more than just getting to heaven?

You mention the possibility of Moses being in spirit form ascending to be the twenty-four elders.

Allow me to run this by you. Jesus said of John the Baptist, Luk 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he, but John say below that his reward will being the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride.

 

Joh 3:29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

I would then ask just who of the Church qualifies to be the bride of our Savior if not those of Smyrna that remained faithful unto death? Rev 2:10.

 

One other thing Paul brings out in 2 Tim 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: . .

Could the following scripture allude to that same thought concerning the 24 elders?

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.

 

ghtan - Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14).

 

Larry 2 - Those of Rev 7:9 and Rev 12:5 surely seem to be mid-trib translations.

 

Hi Larry,

 

The last time I had a discussion on Rev 5:10 with someone on this board, it ended unpleasantly. I hope it will be different this time, even if we disagree with each other in the end.

 

The reading you quote is only in the KJV, and perhaps in some other old translations. Almost all modern translations, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, NLT, you name it, etc. translate us/we as them/they. E.g. in the NIV it is:

 

"You have made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and THEY will reign on the earth." (emphasis mine)

 

Therefore, if the modern translators are correct, the verse actually proves that the 24 elders cannot be the raptured church because they would not refer to themselves as 'them/they'.

 

Of course, there as some KJV-only believers and for them the modern translators are all intentionally mistranslating this text. I do not know whether you are one but, if you are, I would appeal to you to consider that such an accusation would tantamount to saying that all those modern COMMITTEES (no modern translation is the work of only one or a few individuals) of translators are conspiring against the KJV. I really don't see any reason why they should.

 

Hope that helps.