Multiple Wives

September 7, 2006

What you have is something to the effect, "It's not sin, but it is still wrong."

What has been asserted is that it is not a sin, but it is still not God's best, and not a biblical marriage arrangement. Perhaps you should actually READ what is being said, instead of assigning your values to my arguments.

I realize Shiloh says it is not a grey area, but cannot prove his claims that God never ordained polygamous marriages, like in the case of Jacob, or blessed people in them. He wants to hold to that it was in spite of them doing something wrong but not sinful.

Again, you simply don't have grasp of what you are trying to argue against. God established ONE marriage arrangement. It was re-iterated by Jesus in the NT. Polygamy is allowed, tolerated and regulated.

Here is what you fail to grasp. The law highlights what sin is. The fact that God had to regulate polygamy, and had to issue laws that changed the way polygamy was being practiced tells us that the way it was practiced prior to the giving of the law was not acceptable in God' sight. It is one of the few practices that God was willing to tolerate provided it was practiced within certain restrictions. The restrictions tell us a lot. God was able to work through imperfect situations. He was able to bring his Will forth even if it was in less than desirable circumstances. That is all we can take from the story of Jacob, his wives and concubines. The preponderance of Scripture overwhelmingly supports the fact that monogamy is the preferred arrangement and the ONLY arrangement that fits into God's perfect Will.

The Bible says where there is no law there is no transgression, so I don't see how something that is not sin is wrong, but that has been his argument.

That has not been my argument. It is your misguided and continued misconstruement of what I have been saying.

the position cannot be proven one way or the other.

It has been proven and to the satisfaction to everyone but you and lionroot. You have tried to focus in on one family namely Jacob. Since you cannot demonstrate ONE time where God command anyone to to marry more than one wife, you have no basis upon which to claim that ANY polygamous marriage is ordained by God. Just because God brought good out of an inferior marriage arrangement does not mean that God wanted it that way.

There is hardly a time when God is not having to perform His Will and achieve His goals in the midst of our bad decisions. One thing we see in the lives of heroes of the Bible is that God can always strike straight with a crooked stick.

September 7, 2006

As far as I know, Whysoblind and LacyC don't believe you proved your point either. They just got tired of the debate. You think you proved your case. I believe I proved mine. I don't think anyone changed their mind.

You didn't prove anything. Your whole assertion is that nothing can be proved.

nebula · September 7, 2006

Nebula,

Your threats are unneccessary, as well as pointless.

That was not a threat - that was a defense.

Your spirit that comes across through these posts makes me feel very, very uncomfortable.

And your conclusion that polygamy is what set apart the righteous from the unrighteous disturbs me greatly.

If you want to go down that route - can you name one follower of Jesus who was a polygamist?

RGR · September 7, 2006

Nebula,

Your threats are unneccessary, as well as pointless.

That was not a threat - that was a defense.

Your spirit that comes across through these posts makes me feel very, very uncomfortable.

And your conclusion that polygamy is what set apart the righteous from the unrighteous disturbs me greatly.

If you want to go down that route - can you name one follower of Jesus who was a polygamist?

September 7, 2006

As far as I know, Whysoblind and LacyC don't believe you proved your point either. They just got tired of the debate. You think you proved your case. I believe I proved mine. I don't think anyone changed their mind.
You didn't prove anything. Your whole assertion is that nothing can be proved.

And so is yours.

When have I held that position. Go back and read. My position is that it very possible to know whether or not God would use them. You want to pretend that God is ambibuous about the issue. I choose to believe the Bible.

Personally, I think the traditional marriage is preferable for several reasons, but still believe that since polygamy is not a sin, it is acceptable to God.

Oh yeah... God would approve of a marital system that degrades women is cruel and treats women like property. Sorry, but you are wrong. You really have a very shallow understanding of what polygamy is like.

September 7, 2006

And how many couples do you know personally Shiloh that makes you such an expert in polygamy? If you don't know any personally, you have no more understanding of what it is like than I have.

That is like saying that you cannot talk about the dangers of cocaine unless you know cocaine addicts.

I have studied issue, and I am familiar with polygamy especially as it was practiced in the ancient Middleeast. It was very cruel, and there is no way that God would have ordained any woman to have to suffer in it. It would be contrary to His Character.

September 7, 2006

There are abusive one man, one woman marriages as well, and it didn't take a major amount of study to know that. Abraham was not abusive, Jacob was not abusive, David was not abusive, Elhanah was not abusive, etc. Just because you can find examples of abuse doesn't prove your conclusions. It would be like saying that since in a traditional marriage, I can site that a certain percentage of the women are abused, marriage in general is cruel, and there is no way God would have endorsed it.

Abuse is not the issue. Polygamy degrades and dishonors women by virtue of the arragement. Monogamous relationships do not. Carried out properly, a monogamous relationships honors the husband, wife and the Lord. Polygamy is never represented that way in Scripture. Monogamy is not a guarantee against sin, but even if followed according to God's regulations, polygamy cannot come close to being a God honoring marriage arrangement. Polygamy destroys God picture of Christ and the Church and it treats women with shame and dishonor.

September 7, 2006

I just don't agree with you Shiloh. I don't believe Hannah and Peninah were treated with shame and dishonour. When I read 1 Samuel, it appears Elkanah treated them both with great love and respect. There were internal jealousy issues, but that has nothing to do with how they were treated by their husband, or the image the relationship portrayed. This is just a matter or your opinion verses mine.

Dishonor was only one of the problems polygamy presents. I never presented the issue of Hannah and Penninah as one of dishonor from the man, but one of bitterness, and humiliation. Women who were fertile looked down on and mistreated the barren ones.

Polygamy is always presented as connected with things like strife, humilation and in many cases jealousy. Polygamy is never conntected with anything good.

September 7, 2006

OK, most of what you said I agree with. All, but the last sentence. Because of Hannah's jealousy and strife with Peninah, she cried out to God for a son, and he gave her Sameul. Samuel is something good. The 12 patriarchs are good as well. On all other points, you are correct.

Yes, but neither case constitutes a value judgement on polygamy. It only reinforces my previous point that God can bring good out of a less than desirable situation, even something like polygamy.

September 7, 2006

I do understand what you are saying. I guess the only question I would have is would Hannah have cried out to God for a son in a differen't circumstance, and would she have loaned him to the Lord? Only God knows the answer for sure. I am just saying her circumstances concerning her adversary Peninah, led to her pleading with God, and subsequently his answer, so it could be argued that Samuel's birth was a result of a polygamous marriage.

Even if Hannah had not been barren, and cried out to God, Samuel's birth would have been the result of polygamist marriage. Samuel's birth was a response to Hannah's prayer/faith, not an endorsement of polygamy.