Conversation with those who believe Christ has NOT returned (2nd Advent) and will NOT be coming pre trib (rapture)

[Justin Adams]

Then in 70Ad what He said came true.

[OneLight]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I would REALLY like to converse with others who BELIEVE, 'that Christ has NOT YET returned for the 2nd Advent as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Day of vengeance to RULE with a rod of iron for the Millennium (Lords Day),  and there will be NO 'coming or return' PRE TRIBULATION to 'gather' anyone.  (those are the only parameters set in stone for the conversation)

I'd like to discuss it, but I am very tired of the same arguments you are.    Good luck on that ...

[Selah7]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Do we agree that when the deadly wound is healed and the world starts to worship the 'image', that is when the world (those calling themselves Christians included) will no longer be worshipping our Lord and Saviour (because they are falling  into deception and believing when they hear other men saying 'LO HERE IS CHRIST'? and  that is the meaning of 'HOW the daily sacrifice (love to the TRUE GOD) is taken away'?  

Yes.  People will be deceived.

Matthew 24:5-31

5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 

….and the daily sacrifice will be taken away:

Daniel 8:9-11

9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Selah7

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

But no, the removing of the daily or continuous is a real act. The beast will put a stop to any worship that does not honor him and him alone and it will start in Jerusalem in the Temple as Jerusalem is the city God has called holy and the Temple is where He is, or was, worshipped.

Yes, but it is through DEception.  Lies.  The whole world doesn't want to follow anyone or thing they THINK is against their god or God.  That is why Satan is portrayed as ugly and evil and all the things we think of as criminal.  But isn't that the rub? We are told he is beautiful and wise and he will be the first supernatural 'person' anyone alive on earth at the time has ever witnessed.  How much do you think it will take to sway people with signs and wonders?  Having 'healed' the deadly wound basically making the world belive he is a SAVIOUR of some sort isn't going to be hard at all.  MANY will be deceived.  Only those with the gospel armor will be able to withstand.  They don't/won't SEE him as evil in any way.  It takes spiritual eyes to see who he REALLY is.  Look at Eve our first example.  He came in with what SOUNDS like Gods truth but really isn't.  He sounds like he is going to give a leg up but is only pulling the wool over the eyes.  He is convincing.  Do you think it will be much different than that?  If so I would like to know how you see it.  

 

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yeah...I don't think so. I don't know where this is in scripture but it looks like a dispensational teaching sans merit. Flattery employed by Satan and the beast will be geared toward winning over the hearts of the Jews and insinuating the beast and his armies into Israel and surrounding Jerusalem. 

God has only called one city holy and one people His; Jerusalem is that city and the holy people are true Israel. That's what Satan is seeking to usurp and destroy and that's where it will begin and it won't matter what the world thinks or does. It looks like the world may even oppose the beast and go to war against him.  “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”

And if this comes from the 2nd seal the peace taken is from the land, not the whole earth. Again this is likely focused on the Jewish people and Jerusalem. The beast will come into Israel using flattery to infiltrate and then when they are feeling safe and whole then that condition is shattered by the 2nd horse and rider.

The focus of all prophecy going forward is Israel and Jerusalem and God's plan for the King to return to the Mount of Olives. The world will follow along or drown in catastrophe, probably a bit of both. 

These are the things I would like to work out in scripture without getting taken off course.  And I do agree, Daniels prayer 'thy holy city' is the place our eyes best remain.  Not to mention the feet and the 10 TOES being 'potters clay and iron'.  

 

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

We are supposed to be watching and giving thanks to our Father for all we have. We are not supposed to be divided. 

Are you sure?  Those divisions we see so clearly ESPECIALLY when discussing Gods Truths are there for a reason.  They can't help but do what they do.  But we are to Watch, take note.  Those who would come against us many times 'know' more of the letter than we do, they possess lots and lots of wisdom and knowledge but it is ALL about MANS words, mans history, mans ways of 'dividing', but what they can't understand is the knowledge and wisdom only the Spirit gives.  Inspect the fruit, not the words.  

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

THIS IS OUR HOUSE

Luke 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

Luke 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

DO NOT be deceived by any man, MANY will come in HIS NAME but believe them not.  

THis is what is hard to do.  It is so easy to spin someone away from finding Gods truth by placing all kinds of different stumbling blocks in the way.   Mis direction TAKES UP VALUABLE TIME NEEDED TO PUT ON THE ARMOR.  ENDLESS DISCUSSIONS BUT NOT ABOUT GODS TRUTHS,  BUT ABOUT THE WORDS USED.  THose can be manipulated.  Gods overall plan CAN'T.  But if that overall plan can be KEPT from being found out, well,  job accomplished for someone.  Keep 'em in the details so they never see the light, isn't that something WE must fight against?  

Looking forward to finding a starting place and moving forward.  I am thinking maybe with Luke 21:24 or Dan 7:24 or 9:24 (cause we know those pretty well I think).  First off just going to see if a discussion can be had at all without 'being taken away captive by what others wish to discuss'. 

Any and all suggestions welcome.  Thank you for all you have written already

[Walter and Deborah]

On 6/24/2021 at 3:38 PM, DeighAnn said:

I would REALLY like to converse with others who BELIEVE, 'that Christ has NOT YET returned for the 2nd Advent as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Day of vengeance to RULE with a rod of iron for the Millennium (Lords Day),  and there will be NO 'coming or return' PRE TRIBULATION to 'gather' anyone.  (those are the only parameters set in stone for the conversation) 

It seems that WHENEVER this topic is brought up,  the discussion is immediately turned to 'He already has', OR 'He is coming PRE TRIB',  while 

WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE (for those who believe it is future) NEVER GETS ADDRESSED. 

(IF I AM WRONG,  and the conversation doesn't turn to 'He already has' or 'He will Pre trib', please let me apologize now so there will be no need to bring that up).

In hopes of being VERY transparent,  IF YOU BELIEVE HE HAS ALREADY RETURNED, PLEASE continue to address those thoughts and comments and concerns in the more appropriate posts addressing that and same for the PRE TRIB Rapture theory folks. 
This is not meant to be a discussion on either of those.

I thank you for your understanding. 

ALSO, please help me out by not bringing in the  'known teachings or theories of men'.  I don't know who they are, I don't know what they teach and I don't want to know at this time.   Seriously just looking to find scripture,  and scripture to back up scripture. 

SO AGAIN, IF you believe He returned in 70AD, PLEASE GO TO THOSE POSTS.  IF you believe that He will come PRE TRIBULATION, PLEASE address anything to do with those beliefs in the more appropriate places.  


THAT BEING SAID,

There are things we are told that must take place before He returns. There are also things that take place once he is released for the final war before the lake of fire.  How can we determine  what scripture  goes where.  

Because Satans spirit has been LONG working in 'those who are 'of your father the devil and the works of him you will do' and 'those who are of the synagogue of Satan' and those in which 'the mystery of iniquity doeth already work' AND we are told in the final generation that 'that the whole world will worship after him', and the 1948 prophecy filling up the time indicated in Lev 26,

DOES it seem that the  multi kingdoms (crowns), multi powers (horns) rising up (coming together in the name of money and power) out of the peoples of the world (sea) with changes coming quicker and quicker technology, transportation, exploration etc. (labor pains) has far to go??  

We know? or do we?  that during the first half of the week it is the 'under the influence' of the 'one head' (of the beast rising up aka Satan, Serpent, the dragon, the devil) that everything is being made ready for his arrival to 'heal the deadly wound' upon being kicked out of heaven.  (the 10 earthly kings coming to power, the world becoming more one in politics, money, education and religion (surprisingly made available by the world wide web) and when that happens it will be unlike anything ever seen before,  as Satan and his angels will have lost the war in heaven, been cast to the earth and  have arrived here with supernatural powers which will be on FULL display.  

Do we agree the two witnesses God sends will arrive a very short time before Satan and his angels and THEIR supernatural powers will be on display also?  

Do we agree that when the deadly wound is healed and the world starts to worship the 'image', that is when the world (those calling themselves Christians included) will no longer be worshipping our Lord and Saviour (because they are falling  into deception and believing when they hear other men saying 'LO HERE IS CHRIST'? and  that is the meaning of 'HOW the daily sacrifice (love to the TRUE GOD) is taken away'?  

Do we agree that Satan will come with a promise of peace and prosperity and win over the world with flatteries and wonders and signs? and that the 'death' we read about is of the 'soul' and not the physical body and that is why God tells us 

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Do we agree that to buy and sell during that time will only be done by those who take the beasts (satans) mark? 

Do we agree that there will be those who DON'T believe Satan is who he claims to be and they  will be 'turned over' to powers for 10 day trials in which the Holy Spirit will speak through them and that the truths that will be spoken will open the eyes of some of those who otherwise would have fallen into deception?  And that those who are taken to these trials know that they themselves are not to speak?

What are we supposed to be doing?  What are we not supposed to be doing?  

Just in case...

 

Great post and questions.

 

 

Love, Walter

Edited June 25, 2021 by Walter and Deborah

[Riverwalker]

I just have to say pre-trib rapture is not Jesus coming back.....we meet him in the air.

::backing away:::

[missmuffet]

27 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

I just have to say pre-trib rapture is not Jesus coming back.....we meet him in the air.

::backing away:::

Yes, Jesus Christ does not set His foot on this earth in the rapture of the Church. He will set His foot on this earth at the second coming after the 7 year tribulation. 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Selah7 said:

 This is the deadly wound, the Elect letting the Holy Spirit witness to the world!!! 

If that were to be the 'deadly wound',  how would Satan 'heal' it?  And why would the whole world worship after him because of it?  And why do you believe 'the Holy Spirit speaking through the elect 'wounds' just one of the 10 heads and not all of them?  

As I understand it, it isn't UNTIL the elect are brought up before DEATH/Satan which to me doesn't work because Satan 'becomes' the one the whole world worships BECAUSE the wound is healed so the elect can't be brought up before.  Do you see what I am getting at?  The order of those events don't work because they are backwards or I am really not following.  So please help me understand.  

Thank you for helping to negotiate through all these things, I really appreciate it.  I can't do it on my own.  One of my worst problems is I can tell you why something might not work out but can't seem to tell you how it will from the get go.  

 

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.



Again, Thank you

[Selah7]

23 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Okay, so the Antichrist (AC) appears in the midst of the week (Daniel’s 70th week) (but those days have been shortened to 5 months).  The delivering up of the Elect does not occur until after Satan appears as the AC, and so this happens in the latter half of the hour of temptation.  Many will come out of confusion and into the Truth at this time, including the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth (Rev. 14).  This is the deadly wound, the Elect letting the Holy Spirit witness to the world.  These "strangers" from all the nations are all the men and women of God that will stand and prophecy against Satan and his system.  The sword that these "strangers” will use is the Word of God.  The people of God will have the “cloven” tongue; when the Holy Spirit speaks through them, it will be like it was in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.  When the Elect of God are speaking, all mankind will hear in their own language.

Ezekiel 28:6-8

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

 

@DeighAnn  I had edited my post so I’m posting the part you may have not read.  Before we discuss some of your other points,

What does Ezekiel 28:6-10 mean to you? I’ll post it again:

Ezekiel 28:6-8

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Selah7

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

A few people will see through the lies, there will be converts all up until Christ returns.
My words are written in that specific hope.
I believe that actual sacrifices will be re-installed, the idea of actual extra-terrestrials will spur on such modern rituals.
They already tell people that the 'aliens' mutilate cows for the cows blood.

Since it is ONLY the tribe of Judah out of all the tribes who don't accept the Lamb of God, as the Messiah, why would that be 'reinstituted'?  Any idea the percentage of Jewish peoples in the world today vs the percentage of Christians?    

We know the SACrifice of today is our LOVE and faith in the Lord and not shed blood,  as no blood can surpass the blood shed by Christ (and those ordinances nailed to the cross).  Jerusalem was for a time where ALL the tribes went.  Maybe you can tell me why this one tribes 'non acceptance' of Messiah seems to carry so much weight cause I can't figure it out.  Do you think all the people in Jerusalem today are of the tribe of Judah and want to go back to animal sacrifice?   

We know 'ET's are going to come when they are kicked out of heaven and it will be like the days of Noe and that is why we are told

1 Corinthians 11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

1 Corinthians 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Do you have an 'out line' of sorts you believe to be the coming order of events?  It would be nice to see it.  Anyway thank you too!!!  And keep correcting me and any errors and making sure I don't put forth any lies.  Keep everything out in the light.  Nothing hidden, right?