Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Sister]

On 12/1/2022 at 4:43 AM, WilliamL said:

These passages speak of Antiochus Epiphanes, and not the End Times.

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Hi WilliamL

Not Antiochus Epiphanes, but is at the end times when the Son of Perdition is revealed (The False Prophet)

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

What happens when the trangressors come to the full?

Evil has to be cut down.  Babylon has fallen.  It's time for her to reap what she has sown.  God will use his method and send in the destroyers.  Those who love this world  and refuse to come out of her have to drink of that cup, and that cup starts with the Son of Perdition (False Prophet) who will oppress the nations and also oppress the Holy People of God.  He oppresses everyone and this is the man to cause the final destruction on this world's system.  This harmonizes nicely with Jeremiah 25, and Rev 18.  Everything will be thrown back in his face, and just wait, 3.5 yrs until his kingdom comes to nothing.  Step by step, Babylon will receive all the plagues and will dissolve into nothing.

The False Prophet is that king of fierce countenance, the same one we were warned about in 2 Thess chapter 2.  This is Satan's son, the Son of Perdition.  He is Satan's brain child.  This man is coming and we were warned.  Can't change what is written. 

Know the depths of Satan how cunning he is.  Know that he is persecuting God's woman because he is attacking the truth, trying to make us not believe the written Word.  He's sent a whole host out there to cause confusion and cast doubt.  Don't forget that God already knew and had it in his plans to give salvation to the Gentiles.  That book is for us too.  We don't have to know how to read Hebrew, because God's hand was on the interpreters of the day, and no other king in this world was ordained for God's word to be published and sent out to the world so that we can have it today, hassle free and receive instruction.

The scriptures harmonize.  The lies don't fit.

[WilliamL]

On 12/4/2022 at 3:27 AM, Sister said:

Daniel 8:23   And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

What happens when the trangressors come to the full?

Evil has to be cut down.  Babylon has fallen. 

You've removed the passage from its context.

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

1 Macc. 1:11 In those days lawless men came forth from Israel and misled many, saying, “Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles...” 13 …some of the people eagerly went to the king [Antiochus]. He authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. 14 So they…abandoned the holy covenant. Dan. 11:23 And some [of the Jews] binding themselves with him, he act[ed] deceitfully, and r[o]se up and bec[a]me strong with a small nation. 2 Macc. 4:7-9 Jason, the brother of [High Priest] Onias [III], obtained the high priesthood by corruption, [paying a large bribe to Antiochus. :10 Jason then] shifted his countrymen over to the Greek way of life. …14 …the priests were no longer intent upon their service at the altar.

2 Macc. 4:23 After a period of three years…Menelaus… 24 …secured the high priesthood for himself, outbidding Jason… 25 [Being a Benjamite, he] possess[ed] no qualifications for the high priesthood, but had the hot temper of a cruel tyrant and the rage of a savage wild beast. [32-34 Using gold vessels he stole from the temple, he then bribed Antiochusʼs deputy to have Onias III assassinated, ca. 172/1 B.C.]

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1411-antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-end-times-part-1-the-history/

In the historical context of Daniel 8, "the transgressors/ha-poshim" were the Jews of that day who rebelled against the Torah and the High Priest Onias III.

[Sister]

William

 Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

You do know who the Prince of princes is, and what day this is?

This same guy, that king of fierce countenance is going to stand up against the Prince of princes in the latter time of their kingdom.  Also same Guy from Rev 13.

[WilliamL]

On 12/7/2022 at 12:32 AM, Sister said:

William

 Daniel 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

You do know who the Prince of princes is, and what day this is?

This same guy, that king of fierce countenance is going to stand up against the Prince of princes in the latter time of their kingdom.  Also same Guy from Rev 13.

Yes, I do know who this Prince of princes is: Michael.

 

Daniel 8:10 And he became great unto the host of the heavens, and caused to fall [Hiphil] earthward some from the host and from the stars, and trampled them. 11 And he was made great [Hiphil] unto the sar/chief of the host… 25 “…and he shall stand against the sar-sarim/chief one of chief ones…”

Antiochus took the titular name Epiphanes, which literally means “Over-Shining One,” or more generally “Manifestation (of Godhood).” To dispel any doubt, he minted coins carrying his portrait along with the words Theos Epiphanes: “God Manifest.” He was thoroughly possessed by a heavenly sar/chief one/Power. And, as such, felt empowered to contest for preeminence over the Land of Israel and the Jerusalem Temple with the sar-sarim of heaven. Some have supposed that one to be Onias III, the pious Jewish High Priest. Others have presumed him to be the pre-incarnate Christ. But in Daniel 10:13 and 12:1, the pre-incarnate Christ tells us that “the אחד/first/foremost of the ancestral sarim” [Heb. אַחַד הַשָּׂרִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים] is the archangel Michael, who is “the great sar, the one standing over your people [Israel].” See also Daniel 10:21, Revelation 12:7, Jude 9, and Joshua 5:14.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

 

[Sister]

On 12/17/2022 at 6:02 AM, WilliamL said:

Yes, I do know who this Prince of princes is: Michael.

 

Daniel 8:10 And he became great unto the host of the heavens, and caused to fall [Hiphil] earthward some from the host and from the stars, and trampled them. 11 And he was made great [Hiphil] unto the sar/chief of the host… 25 “…and he shall stand against the sar-sarim/chief one of chief ones…”

Antiochus took the titular name Epiphanes, which literally means “Over-Shining One,” or more generally “Manifestation (of Godhood).” To dispel any doubt, he minted coins carrying his portrait along with the words Theos Epiphanes: “God Manifest.” He was thoroughly possessed by a heavenly sar/chief one/Power. And, as such, felt empowered to contest for preeminence over the Land of Israel and the Jerusalem Temple with the sar-sarim of heaven. Some have supposed that one to be Onias III, the pious Jewish High Priest. Others have presumed him to be the pre-incarnate Christ. But in Daniel 10:13 and 12:1, the pre-incarnate Christ tells us that “the אחד/first/foremost of the ancestral sarim” [Heb. אַחַד הַשָּׂרִים הָרִאשֹׁנִים] is the archangel Michael, who is “the great sar, the one standing over your people [Israel].” See also Daniel 10:21, Revelation 12:7, Jude 9, and Joshua 5:14.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

 

Hi William

  Acts 3:15   And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

 

  Acts 5:31   Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 Revelation 1:5   And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

This is something that has only come to my attention recently.

Jesus is a prince because he is the son of a KING.  Not the son of  any king but the son of his Almighty Father who is God which sent him.  That King.

Of all the princes which are many, Jesus has been given authority over them all, because he was faithful until death.  Therefore he is called the Prince of Princes.

But God has given his Son, his prince, a kingdom to rule over on the earth and when he returns he shall be crowned and glorified as King, and will rule over of all the kings of the earth.  Therefore he is the King of Kings of that kingdom he was promised and all shall be fulfilled.

So the KJV version I am quoting, is not corrupt or contrary but harmonises nicely with the truth.

The Prince of Princes is not Michael.  Michael is only 'a' prince.  One of the many.  He doesn't hold that great title of Prince of Princes and doesn't even compare.  He is only the prince of Israel, and the prince of war and is subject to Jesus.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/21/2022 at 4:43 PM, Sister said:

The Prince of Princes is not Michael.  Michael is only 'a' prince.  One of the many.  He doesn't hold that great title of Prince of Princes and doesn't even compare. 

If I remember correctly, there are 14 different words translated "prince" in the KJV. So when one is translating and interpreting that English definition in the Book of Daniel or elsewhere, context must determine its use. In this case, the word is sar. As I believe I showed, that word in the context of Daniel 8 does not really mean a prince in the sense that you use it; that is, as someone of royalty. Rather, it means a powerful leader in a military sense.

So if  you can find somewhere in the OT where sar definitively refers to the pre-incarnate Jesus, than you may have a case. But I believe in case of Daniel 8 and 10, all you have is your own presumption, unsupported by the context. The New Testament passages that you quoted of a completely different Greek word translated "prince" is irrelevant to the context in Daniel.

[Fallen into Grace]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this question but is there even going to be a rapture? We need to have our hope in Jesus's Second Coming. Not in something that may or may not happen.

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Fallen into Grace said:

Not sure if this is the right place to post this question but is there even going to be a rapture? We need to have our hope in Jesus's Second Coming. Not in something that may or may not happen.

Oh there is absolutely a rapture (taking up) of the alive and sleeping saints. The only question that is often debated is when this is going to happen.

[WilliamL]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:30 PM, Alive said:

Oh there is absolutely a rapture (taking up) of the alive and sleeping saints. The only question that is often debated is when this is going to happen.

While I agree with what you say in your first sentence, there are now, and historically have been, a whole lot of professing Christians who deny/have denied the rapture.

[DeighAnn]

Post trib is the one and ONLY time there is A NEED for the people on the earth to be CHANGED, rather than to die and be raised...

and that is because THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is officially come upon the earth and there is a change of REALMS as

The Lord has returned with all the holy angels,
The dead have been raised and
the remaining have been changed...

There is no change of 'realm' 7 years before so there is no need for men to ESCAPE DEATH and tribulation but there is a need for them to die if no more than to keep the words of God PURE.    


Post Trib is also the only 'timing' that doesn't make void the words of God.  

We do pick up our cross and follow Him

We do suffer tribulation

We do endure to the end

We are here for 10 day trial

There is no generation that receives A SIGN

We do remain barren to the end

We don't look to save our lives

We don't whitewash the walls and use untempered mortar

We don't teach anyone to fly

We remain as sheep to the slaughter

When Christ returns Satan is bound and the 1000 years stays the 1000 years and we don't seek to change the time

We follow the examples set for us

We do labor and not faint and keep His name to the end

We continue to do the first works, spread the good news to the end

We do overcome and keep His works to the end

We don't fear the first death we don't fear the things we will suffer

We will remain faithful, even to the death of us




All these verses are rendered NULL AND VOID in one way or another by a pre trib rapture

and how Gods PURE WORD is corrupted by it.  




Heb 9
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1. appointed unto men once to die



"(A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psalms 110:1 KJV

2. sit until I make thine enemies thy footstool

Pre trib has Christ leaving before the war in heaven ends so before enemies cast down to the footstool.

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" Ephesians 2:12 KJV

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

3.  aliens from the common wealth of Israel, now A PART of Israel


16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
 

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

John 10:16 - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 

4.  fellow citizens of saints, of the household of God, built upon THE KING OF ISRAEL, fitly framed together, groweth unto an holy temple, builded together, one fold, one shepherd,



Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people


5.  The NEW COVENANT is with the house of Israel and with the House of Judah, no covenant is ever made 'with the gentile church' is there?? since the church is just a part of Israel, not separate from. 


Acts 28:20 - For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. 

Rom 1 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

'no church age' mentioned by GOD just a conclusion of man because the doctrine needs SOME WAY TO HAVE AN END BEFORE THE END.  Without a church AGE, they have no END.  They themselves KNOW it is not the end because they 'assign' trib saints to go to the end, so it is the blindness that comes off the part of Israel when the fullness of gentiles comes and the two sticks are made one again so the church can't be taken away or there would end up 1 1/2 sticks. , why get rid of all who have been taught before they can share?  Are we not servants?  





1. appointed unto men once to die

2. sit until I make thine enemies thy footstool

3.  aliens from the common wealth of Israel, now A PART of Israel

4.  fellow citizens of saints, of the household of God, built upon THE KING OF ISRAEL, fitly framed together, groweth unto an holy temple, builded together, one fold, one shepherd,

5.  The NEW COVENANT is with the house of Israel and with the House of Judah, no covenant is ever made 'with the gentile church' as the church is just a part of Israel, not separate from


as I find them I will post them till they all be together in one place.