Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, farouk said:

You see the distinction between justification - Hebrews 11 - and the earthly promises surrounding Israel.

Everyone is justified by faith, OT saints, NT saints, and saints of every generation.  "The just shall live by his faith."  (Habakkuk 2:4).

What earthly promises are you referring to? 

[farouk]

Just now, BornAgain490 said:

Everyone is justified by faith, OT saints, NT saints, and saints of every generation.  "The just shall live by his faith."  (Habakkuk 2:4).

What earthly promises are you referring to? 

The church is a heavenly people (Ephesians 1); Israel's inheritance is earthly (even while a remnant is justified).

[The Light]

37 minutes ago, farouk said:

Well, I would see the church as a revealed NT mystery, as per Ephesians, Acts, etc.

The Old Testament is filled with prophecies of the end times. I would think the Church would be part of the end times.

37 minutes ago, farouk said:

I do know that commentators often see the church as the bride of Christ and Israel as the wife of Jehovah.

Jacob had two brides. Leah and the Chosen bride Rachel. 

I am going to see what I can find on Israel being the wife of Jehovah as Israel remains on the earth during the wrath of God. The Church and the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured before the wrath of God.

Thanks for the info.

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, farouk said:

The church is a heavenly people (Ephesians 1); Israel's inheritance is earthly (even while a remnant is justified).

Where in Ephesians do you see a distinction between Jews who are Christians and Gentiles who are Christians? 

All are gathered together in Christ (Jews and Gentiles), both which are in Heaven and which are on earth.  (Ephesians 1:10). 

Faithful Gentiles are fellow citizens with faithful Jews, and are together "of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." (Ephesians 2:19-20), and both faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles are one in Christ, are both Abraham's seed, and both are heirs to the same promise. (Galatians 3:26-29).

Clearly, God has only one body of faithful people, and it is the body of Christ, which is every faithful Jew and every faithful Gentile.  

[farouk]

1 minute ago, BornAgain490 said:

Where in Ephesians do you see a distinction between Jews who are Christians and Gentiles who are Christians? 

All are gathered together in Christ (Jews and Gentiles), both which are in Heaven and which are on earth.  (Ephesians 1:10). 

Faithful Gentiles are fellow citizens with faithful Jews, and are together "of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets." (Ephesians 2:19-20), and both faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles are one in Christ, are both Abraham's seed, and both are heirs to the same promise. (Galatians 3:26-29).

Clearly, God has only one body of faithful people, and it is the body of Christ, which is every faithful Jew and every faithful Gentile.  

I do see a future for Israel; I don't see the church as replacing Israel; but those are great verses from Ephesians showing how in Christ believers are one in Him, indeed, in the church.

[BornAgain490]

1 minute ago, farouk said:

I do see a future for Israel; I don't see the church as replacing Israel; but those are great verses from Ephesians showing how in Christ believers are one in Him, indeed, in the church.

I never say church replaces Israel, but that the old covenant God made with Israel is superceded the new covenant that God told the prophets of Israel He would establish.  The new covenant was establishrd and fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and Jews and Gentiles receive the very same benefits of the new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ. It is a covenant that God prophesied would be for both Jews and the Gentiles.

Paul goes on to call the sum total of all believers in Christ under the New Covenant, "the Israel of God."  Galatians 6:16. 

[BornAgain490]

11 minutes ago, farouk said:

I do see a future for Israel; I don't see the church as replacing Israel; but those are great verses from Ephesians showing how in Christ believers are one in Him, indeed, in the church.

I'll ask again: for what reason did God choose Abraham Isaac and Jacob (Israel)?

[The Light]

3 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

I never say church replaces Israel, but that the old covenant God made with Israel is superceded the new covenant that God told the prophets of Israel He would establish.  The new covenant was establishrd and fulfilled by Jesus Christ, and Jews and Gentiles receive the very same benefits of the new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ. It is a covenant that God prophesied would be for both Jews and the Gentiles.

Paul goes on to call the sum total of all believers in Christ under the New Covenant, "the Israel of God."  Galatians 6:16. 

So yes, you see the cake, but you do not understand the steps that take place to make the cake.

The mostly Gentile Church is the first harvest as they recognize that Jesus is the Messiah. After fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel will have its eyes opened. Then God will keep His promise to the Jews. They will be the second harvest.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The current Church is the first fold, as we know Jesus is the Messiah. Other sheep, the Jews, not of this fold will then hear His voice and know that He is the prophesied Messiah. That fold will also be brought in. Two folds into one fold, the Israel of God.

God has a plan that is clearly laid out in the Bible. There are two raptures.

[BornAgain490]

11 minutes ago, The Light said:

The mostly Gentile Church

LOL.  I love how dispensational pretrib advocates use a slight of hand, so to speak. 

Just say it:  The "mostly Gentile church" includes every Jew that is in Christ, from every generation. Do you get it now? 

19 minutes ago, The Light said:

After fullness of the Gentiles comes in,

The fullness of the Gentiles is not a rapture, it's about salvation of Gentiles before Christ returns. You need to slowly study Romans 11 to understand this very simple concept. 

 

21 minutes ago, The Light said:

Then God will keep His promise to the Jews.

God already kept His promise to the Jews, and thst promise was fulfilled in Jesus Christ the Son of God.  Jesus fulfilled the prophecy God gave, first in the garden (Genesis 3:15) when He promised to send the seed of the woman, and then to the prophets (Isaiah 53; Zechariah 3; et al) to send His servant, and to usher in a New Covenant for the Jews and the Gentiles. 

 

27 minutes ago, The Light said:

They will be the second harvest.

There is only one gathering or harvest of saints,  Jews and Gentiles, that were justified through faith.  

 

30 minutes ago, The Light said:

The current Church is the first fold, as we know Jesus is the Messiah. Other sheep, the Jews, not of this fold will then hear His voice and know that He is the prophesied Messiah. That fold will also be brought in. Two folds into one fold, the Israel of God.

There is only one fold, one body, and it consists of all faithful Jews in Christ and all faithful Gentiles in Christ.  These collectively are right now the Israel of God. 

 

32 minutes ago, The Light said:

God has a plan that is clearly laid out in the Bible.

Yes, He does.  You don't see it, though. 

 

33 minutes ago, The Light said:

There are two raptures.

That is false. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

LOL.  I love how dispensational pretrib advocates use a slight of hand, so to speak. 

Isn't the Church mostly Gentile? I'd be happy to call it the Gentile Church but that would not be entirely accurate. There is a very small percentage of Jews in the Church currently. 

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Just say it:  The "mostly Gentile church" includes every Jew that is in Christ, from every generation. Do you get it now? 

I got it before. 

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The fullness of the Gentiles is not a rapture, it's about salvation of Gentiles before Christ returns.

Its about the fullness of the Gentiles.........coming in. The Church will not be on the earth by the time the great tribulation occurs.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

You need to slowly study Romans 11 to understand this very simple concept. 

My Bible says it is a mystery. It seems my Bible is correct.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

God already kept His promise to the Jews, and thst promise was fulfilled in Jesus Christ the Son of God.  Jesus fulfilled the prophecy God gave, first in the garden (Genesis 3:15) when He promised to send the seed of the woman, and then to the prophets (Isaiah 53; Zechariah 3; et al) to send His servant, and to usher in a New Covenant for the Jews and the Gentiles. 

Have the branches been regrafted into the Olive tree? The eyes of the Jews cannot be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the first harvest. What does Israel say after the harvest?

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

There is only one gathering or harvest of saints,  Jews and Gentiles, that were justified through faith.  

Your opinion. It does agree with the Word of God. After the 1st harvest, we have 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. If the first fruits of a harvest are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. Since the first fruits are of the 12 tribes, the harvest will be of the 12 tribes.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

There is only one fold, one body, and it consists of all faithful Jews in Christ and all faithful Gentiles in Christ.  These collectively are right now the Israel of God. 

Two folds into one just as the Word declares.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

 

That is false. 

Oh, there will be two raptures, grain and fruit.

There will be two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.

There will be two raptures, one when it's like the days of Noah and one when it's like the days of Lot. 

One rapture at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

One rapture, the Lord Himself comes and one rapture He sends His angels.

 

Edited November 19, 2024 by The Light