Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Guest Frankie boy]

Wow its Hard to go from PostTrib to Prewrath, PostTrib to Prewrath lol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Trin,

It would be nice if you would make the distinction to who you posting to....

A particular poster or to "All".

But it does not matter, you just seem to be one that mocks rather than one who seeks only God's truth. You snicker and bite...........

Gee, did Jesus ever do this? After all, we are to walk in His steps and imitate Him and not be cynics like the world is.

In His Service,

Frankie boy

[Guest]

I think we are on the same page. Hope others that just read will take the Word to heart and not be afraid to jump in....The waters fine,LOL.

Someone once said...."the only stupid question is the one we don't ask"

Then I have a lot of stupid questions!!! The truth is out there!!!

[Trinity]

Please, Go back and show where is have ever in this thread where i "mock...snicker and bite"

I have not done anything but posted what i believe in a nice way, i've always been respectful and i don't know what you mean by i "mock...snicker and bite" because if you look back even before you even came to worthy on this thread i haven't So... Can you please not assume

P.S.

Oh and by the way... i haven't complained about being mocked because i don't think i have been mocked i've always thought this was a clean conversation i never said I'm being mocked once...

So hold your horses

Hopefully we will be on the same side of an Issue with me sometime it will be fun

[Guest Frankie boy]

Please, Go back and show where is have ever in this thread where i "mock...snicker and bite"

I have not done anything but posted what i believe in a nice way, i've always been respectful and i don't know what you mean by i "mock...snicker and bite" because if you look back even before you even came to worthy on this thread i haven't  So... Can you please not assume

P.S.

Oh and by the way... i haven't complained about being mocked because i don't think i have been mocked    i've always thought this was a clean conversation i never said I'm being mocked once...

So hold your horses

Hopefully we will be on the same side of an Issue with me sometime it will be fun 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Trin,

If I missjudged your tone. It's hard to read word inflection when we post.

I guess when it comes to this kind of debate, I don't have much time for humor.

I will try to lighten up. And I sure don't mean to offend.

Your brother in Christ,

Frankie boy

[Trinity]

Please, Go back and show where is have ever in this thread where i "mock...snicker and bite"

I have not done anything but posted what i believe in a nice way, i've always been respectful and i don't know what you mean by i "mock...snicker and bite" because if you look back even before you even came to worthy on this thread i haven't

[Trinity]

Please answer this

Revelation 14:4

These are those-(The sealed 144,000) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as (FIRST-FRUITS) to God and the Lamb.

The passage is saying that the 144,000 were offered as firstfruits meaning first converts. How can these people be firstfruits despite the fact that countless people throughout the Church age has been harvested into the Church? They could only be firstfruits if the Church was raptured then God was starting over with a new class of believers during the Tribulation - 144,000 and Tribulation Saints (144,000 being the firstfruits).

http://www.geocities.com/stat23mj/prophecy/pretrib.html

[Guest]

Please answer this 

Revelation 14:4

These are those-(The sealed 144,000) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as (FIRST-FRUITS) to God and the Lamb.

The passage is saying that the 144,000 were offered as firstfruits meaning first converts. How can these people be firstfruits despite the fact that countless people throughout the Church age has been harvested into the Church? They could only be firstfruits if the Church was raptured then God was starting over with a new class of believers during the Tribulation - 144,000 and Tribulation Saints (144,000 being the firstfruits).

There you go again, trying to make sense! Actually, this isn't too bad, I'll ponder that a while, and also give a observations, not rebuttals. Before doing so, ever notice Jesus doing this:

Matt 21:27

27 And answering Jesus, they said, "We do not know." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

It is like there is a tradition of I'll answer you if you'll answer me. I'd like to invoke that tradition. I have asked a question twice now, without receiving an answer, I will try a third time, if you have no answer, just say so, it doesn't mean you are wrong, it just means you have no answer. My former question still unanswered:

We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17, that the dead rise first, then the living Christians are raptured.

In Rev 20:5, we see the First Resurrection

In Rev 20:4 we see that these resurrected ones, were in the Great Tribulation

Now, if those who died during the tribulation are resurrected later. . .

and the rapture follows that resurrection,

doesn't that mean that mean that the rapture follows the tribulation, or am I missing something?

Then of course if that understanding is correct, then obviously, the church will have been around for the tribulation. I'll leave it to you to sort that out, throw out the bad, cling to what is good.

You ponder that while I ponder the first fruits. Some observations:

Ex 23:16

Also you shall observe the Feast of the Harvest of the first fruits of your labors from what you sow in the field; also the Feast of the Ingathering at the end of the year when you gather in the fruit of your labors from the field.

I just through that out there to see what someone might make of it. It is the first mention of first fruits. I like the words feast, harvest, ingathering at the end. . .

almost sounds eschatological itself.

Your statement:

"The passage is saying that the 144,000 were offered as firstfruits meaning first converts. How can these people be firstfruits despite the fact that countless people throughout the Church age has been harvested into the Church?"

Strikes me as somewhat leading and fallacious. It is your statement, that firstfruits means converts, not the Bible's, you may be right, but let's be clear that it is your assertion. As to the second part of that,

FIRSTFRUITS

Figurative: In the Old Testament, in Jer 2:3, Israel is called "the re'shith of his increase." In the New Testament aparche is applied figuratively to the first convert or converts in a particular place (Rom 16:5; 1 Cor 16:15); to the Christians of that age (James 1:18; 2 Thess 2:13, WHm), and to the 144,000 in heaven (Rev 14:4); to Christ, as the first who rose from the dead (1 Cor 15:20,23); also to the blessings which we receive now through the Spirit, the earnest of greater blessings to come (Rom 8:23).

(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia)

Seems that the Bible uses the term in all kinds of situations, several first fruits in the "church age". Is it not possible, the the 144k are the first during the trib, in spite of others who were already followers of Messiah? If there are first fruits from different geographical location, is it inconsistent to have first fruits from different phases oh God's schedule? It was a nice thought, but like most things in pre-trib thinking, you have to make inferences and assertions that cannot be proven or even shown to be consistent with the Bible. I realise that this response is not a powerful rebuttal, but you argument isn't very powerful either, so it is a match, lol.

I am going to guess, that if you ponder and respond to my previous question, that somehow, it will not be powerful to you either, but I ask you, what is wrong with the logic or the facts, is it not the most simple way to harmonize those verses, for that matter, is not almost everything that is at all clear, leading to a post-trib conclusion? One has to work very hard to be a pre-tribber.

Than being said, I recognize that Jesus taught in parables to hide the mysteries, and I may be looking at things too literally, maybe pre-tribbers are jumping to the right conclusions, if so, God went to some trouble to hide the truth from me and it is working.

[Trinity]

We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17, that the dead rise first, then the living Christians are raptured.

In Rev 20:5, we see the First Resurrection

In Rev 20:4 we see that these resurrected ones, were in the Great Tribulation

Now, if those who died during the tribulation are resurrected later. . .

and the rapture follows that resurrection,

doesn't that mean that mean that the rapture follows the tribulation, or am I missing something?

Then of course if that understanding is correct, then obviously, the church will have been around for the tribulation. I'll leave it to you to sort that out, throw out the bad, cling to what is good.

Sorry couldn't answer it sooner i was out all evening.

The first(Resurrection) did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind... The first resurrection was for G-d's people the second will be for the unsaved.

What about these reserections?

take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the AntiMessiah, resurrected by G-d, and then caught up into heaven. (Rev 11:3-12) Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the later half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of G-d.

http://www.psalmsinger.org/rapture1.htm

[Guest Frankie boy]

Please answer this

The passage is saying that the 144,000 were offered as firstfruits meaning first converts. How can these people be firstfruits despite the fact that countless people throughout the Church age has been harvested into the Church? They could only be firstfruits if the Church was raptured then God was starting over with a new class of believers during the Tribulation - 144,000 and Tribulation Saints (144,000 being the firstfruits).

Trinity,

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Note: Paul calls this person the firstfruits of a particular region. Meaning, that there would be more harvest from that same area.

1 Cor 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Note: This is similar....Stephanases household was the firstfruits with more to follow.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Note: james is talking to the scattered Twelve tribes here. After all, the Church began on Jewish ground..."to the Jew first and also to the Greek or Gentile.

Rev 14:4

Being the - rather, 'as a first-fruit.' Not merely in the sense in which all believers are so (James 1:18), but Israel's 144,000 elect are the first-fruit; the Gentile elect, of "every nation, kindred, tongue, and people," who refuse to worship the beast, are the harvest: in a further sense, the whole transfigured and translated Church, which reigns with Christ at His coming, is the first-fruit, and the consequent universal ingathering of Israel and the nations, ending in the last judgment, is the full harvest.

(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft)

I think the above makes good logic for Paul says that "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in".

So all this firstfruity thing proves nothing in favor of a pretrib rapture IMO.

Frankie boy

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hey "O",

Where did all the posters go? Seems to me that two posties and one pretribie is a little bit skewed.

But you were right about Trin in the aspect that he has not answered your questions or mine in proving or disproving the "Imminence" plank.

It's not good to answer questions with other questions. But as long as he continues, I will answer the best I can.

Seeya!

Frankie boy